|| *Comments on the 2015 Quicken Loans Race for Heroes 500:* First Page | Previous Page | Next Page | Last Page | View All On One Page View the most recent comment | Post a comment <#post> 1. JRacingFast posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With a line-up like this....This could be fun 2. RaceFanX posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson tallies his third pole at Phoenix. Six Pack won from the pole here in 2008, he's looking to repeat the feat while playing blocker to help teammate Jeff Gordon lock some top caliber talent out of the Chase finale at Homestead. Ryan Ellis makes his Sprint Cup debut. 3. Kenny posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey I've been trying to figure this out but I can't find anything but just how rich is Joey ppl say he's got a rich dad but just how rich is he and what does his dad to to be so loaded? 4. RaceFanX posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Phoenix International Raceway will be renamed Jeff Gordon Speedway for one day when this race was run, honoring Gordon as his makes his penultimate NASCAR start. This will be Gordon's final race in the blue colors of Pepsi. They've been sponsoring Jeff in various capacities since 1997. He's raced in Cup with Pepsi-themed paint jobs every now and again since 2001 not to mention Pepsi sponsored his only "Buschwacking" efforts in 1999 and 2000. 5. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprised Phoenix agreed to the name change with that little incident he had 3 years ago... 6. Schroeder51 posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's a typo in the race title; it's "Quicken Loans" not "Qucken Loans". 7. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finally Jr gets a good qualifying run... As far as the race goes I still pick Harvick to win but I don't think it's the lead pipe cinch that most everyone seems to think. Watch for the 2 car as well, I think he will be a big factor. 8. racefangurl posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Yea, the Roushskateers beat Sam Hornish, Jr in qualifying! Maybe they'll beat Aric Almirola soon, too. Why did Matt Kenseth have to leave? After he left, everything went to pot there. Well, at least they all were in or very close to the top-25. Maybe next week, they can all make it to Round 2. It almost happened this week. 9. racefangurl posted: 11.13.2015 - 8:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Never count a Penske guy out before the race, as 7 alluded to. The Penske guys need to win to control their own destiny, so one of them just might make it. 10. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.13.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If qualifying 26th is an accomplishment, then it shows how low the standards are for Roush. 11. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.13.2015 - 9:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Don't sleep on Kurt Busch, he had the second best car in the Spring race and if Harvick may be beatable at Jeff Gordon Raceway Sunday. 12. MAR posted: 11.13.2015 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 2 More races Gordon Fans. 13. DH101 posted: 11.13.2015 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cmon Kurt im rooting for ya! 14. Chives5150 posted: 11.13.2015 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Really excited to see Ryan Ellis making his Sprint Cup debut! I'm expecting a Kurt Busch and Carl Edwards show here on Sunday, and of course Harvick and Friends will be close behind them all day. 15. 88&4Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 12:53 am Rate this comment: (3) (9) Probably a good thing that I won't be watching live because if I did I'd probably destroy my TV rather than hear "Jeff Gordon Raceway" 500 gazillion times. 16. WinstonCupStandings posted: 11.14.2015 - 8:36 am Rate this comment: (3) (5) 14th or better for Harvick in these last two races, and he will secure his second cup crown in six seasons. 17. GH05TY posted: 11.14.2015 - 9:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @WinstonCupStandings: how do you come to that conclusion? Under the current format, he has to finish 2nd, 3rd with a lap led, or 4th with most laps led in order to clinch a position at Homestead, where nothing but a win truly secures a cup title. Under a non-Chase format, with modern points, he only has a 17 point lead on Logano, who could tie that up easily by winning while Harvick runs 14th. And the old points format would not give him that much of an advantage, I am fairly confident. 18. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 10:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This will be the last time Quicken Loans sponsors the race, Can-Am will take over the sponsorship in 2016. 19. Jim Davis posted: 11.14.2015 - 11:27 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Can someone please explain how Tony Stewart qualifies in 31st position right behind Matt DiBenedetto? Stewart hasn't just declined; he's fallen off a cliff. 20. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.14.2015 - 11:56 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) #19 after Pocono 2013, Stewart never been the same. His career is taking the Richard Petty slide it looks like 21. Eric posted: 11.14.2015 - 12:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @19, Stewart hasn't been the same since he broke his leg in 2013 and the death of Kevin Ward didn't help matters either. 22. DARoot posted: 11.14.2015 - 12:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I am interested to see what happens Sunday and who gets in the final four. I believe along with Gordon it will be Truex, Harvick, and Kyle. BTW Gordon, I know its a week early, but thank you for your wonderful 23 year Cup Series run. You are one of the reasons I am the person that I am. 23. 88&4Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 12:35 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) Its the kind of thing that happens when you break your leg and right when you're finally beginning to heal from it, you get accused of being a murderer by a vocal minority of the NASCAR fanbase. Stewart had already been on a steady decline already ever since winning the 2011 championship. He started off 2012 red-hot but then did next to nothing the rest of the year and in 2013 before the leg injury he was hovering around 15th for most of the year. My guess is that if the leg injury and the Kevin Ward incident never happened, he'd probably be about a 20th place driver right now which isn't too much better than what he is. 24. racefangurl posted: 11.14.2015 - 1:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 22, my final four picks are Gordon, Truex, Kyle B and the last will be Harvick/Penske driver. If Harvick can't win for whatever reason, then one of Penske drivers (could be either of them) is my backup pick. 25. WinstonCupStandings posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @17 Harvick enters the weekend with a 131 point lead over Logano. 26. MAR posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its official Hornish won't be back in the #9 next season. The leading candidates are Chris Buesher and David Ragan. Also Brian Scott's name is being thrown around as well. 27. Cornys posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder where Hornish will go. 28. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "The leading candidates are Chris Buescher and David Ragan." If they are giving it to Ragan...they are making a huge mistake. He was dissapointing with Roush and he got the opportunity of a lifetime this season and he has done nothing. One top ten and 28th in points. If that's all he can do with MWR, what makes them think he could do better at RPM? 29. Tyson posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) David Ragan is the least deserving candidate. As BigMacFan said, one top-10 this year and it came in one of his nine starts with JGR. He's done miserably at MWR this year. Can't even score a top-10 in a car that rookie Brett Moffitt did in Atlanta. Ragan's had three opportunities, including RFR, with race winning teams and has barely done anything with them. He has shown time and time again that he doesn't deserve a top tier ride, let alone a sub-par ride. 30. Eric posted: 11.14.2015 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have no problem with the 9 car going to Chris Buescher or Brain Scott. I thought Brian Scott did good the 33 car in cup. I think Chris would be interesting in the 9 car. David Ragan is a bad move. While David is a threat at Daytona and Talladega, rest of the tracks aren't plate track. David teased people his 2008 season, but he underachieves with the equipment he has. 31. Tyson posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I doubt Brian Scott or Chris Buescher will get the seat. If Scott does, it'll be because of daddy's money. Buescher has said he wants to stay in Xfinity for another year. I think Regan Smith will take the seat next year, if he can attract some sponsorship. 32. Canadianfan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My understanding based on what RPM was saying was whoever does get the ride must bring money and sponsorship. So whittle down your choices based on that and you'll have your answer. 33. MAR posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) That's why Brian Scott's name got mentioned he can bring the money and Roush would help sponsor Buescher's effort if he went to the #9 and believe it or not Sponsors actually like David Ragan I heard. He's basically this generation's Michael Waltrip. Regan Smith is the best option but he has no shot just like unfortunately Cassill and Whitt they don't bring any sponsor ties. 34. Canadianfan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Two names I heard being thrown around because they have solid sponsorship and they both drive for Ford and I know you guys will just love this Would be Dakoda Armstrong and Ryan Reed. 35. Chives5150 posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Two names I heard being thrown around because they have solid sponsorship and they both drive for Ford and I know you guys will just love this Would be Dakoda Armstrong and Ryan Reed." *single eye twitch* 36. C posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @34 I hope thst a joke 37. David posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Before I undertake such a task myself, is there anyone who calculated what past seasons would have looked like under this Chase format, specifically the 2011-2013 seasons (since they are the only other years with the 43-1 points system)? 38. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @37 I actually took the time to calculate it, but then I lost it all :( All I remember is that Carl Edwards, Kyle Busch, and Dale Jr. would be the 2010, 2012, and 2013 champs respectively. 39. Canadianfan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Of course it's a joke unfortunately you just know there's some dumb people at rpm taking a look and saying hey these two have the sponsorship and money and they have two years driving in Xfinity Oh yeah sure they're ready for cup. 40. Canadianfan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There are some guys on Reddit I tried to post the link it didn't work who figured this out. Its called hypothetical NASCAR Cup Series points from 75 to current using 11 different point systems including IndyCar formula 1 You name it. 41. Canadianfan posted: 11.14.2015 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) David this will blow your mind this was posted on Reddit a couple days ago somebody went through And did every season from 75 to current using 10 different point systems. https://www.reddit.com/r/NASCAR/comments/3sex89/hypothetical_nascar_cup_series_points_standings/ 42. David posted: 11.14.2015 - 5:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^Thank goodness for Andrew Maness. I has completely forgotten about him. 43. GH05TY posted: 11.14.2015 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I went through and highlighted it a little better so that you can see champions that differ in different formats: http://i.imgur.com/dv1AdHA.png In answer to "who would be champion under this format": Dale Earnhardt Sr. would have 4. Cale Yarborough would have 4. (1975, 1976*, 1977*, 1980) Bobby Allison would have 3. (1978, 1979, 1981) Rusty Wallace would have 3. (1988, 1989*, 1993) Harry Gant would have 3. (1985, 1991, 1992) Jimmie Johnson would have 3. (2003, 2004, 2010*) Kevin Harvick would have 3. (2006, 2008, 2014*) Bill Elliott would have 2. (1984, 1987*) Bobby Labonte would have 2. (1997, 1999) Jeff Gordon would have 2. (1998*, 2000) Tony Stewart would have 2. (2001, 2011*) Kurt Busch would have 2. (2002, 2007) Darrell Waltrip would have 1. (1982*) Neil Bonnett would have 1. (1983) Dale Jarrett would have 1. (1996) Greg Biffle would have 1. (2005) Denny Hamlin would have 1. (2009) Kyle Busch would have 1. (2012) Dale Earnhardt Jr. would have 1. (2013) Asterisks were the actual champion that year. 44. David posted: 11.14.2015 - 6:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Bill Elliott would have 2. (1984, 1987*)" Earnhardt won the actual title in 1987, but I'm sure the asterisk was a typo. 45. GH05TY posted: 11.14.2015 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No, no, asterisks mean exactly that: that was the actual champion that year in addition to under the current Chase format. Stewart actually won in 2011, Johnson actually won in 2010, Gordon actually won in 1998, Wallace actually won in 1989, Elliott actually won in 1987, Waltrip actually won in 1982, Yarborough actually won in 1977 and 1976. I forgot to list Earnhardt, but he actually won in 1994, 1990, and 1986. All 28 other years differ between current Chase and old format, including every year between and including 1999 to 2009. 46. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 7:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Elliott was champion in 1988. Not 1987. 47. Anonymous posted: 11.14.2015 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Poster 46 didn't read what poster 44 typed. Poster 44 typed Bill Elliott would've won the 1987 championship by using the current championship format instead of the 1975 to 2003 championship format. 48. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.14.2015 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But the asterisk meant that they won in both the current chase the and 1975 to 2003 format. Elliott didn't win the 1987 title in the Latford system. 49. Sector posted: 11.14.2015 - 10:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Elliott and Wallace won their championships back to back. 1988-1989. Good riddance. 50. John posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:44 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) Wow they changed the name of the race track. It's not like Gordon was great at Phoenix or anything. 51. Matt Fink posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:49 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ready for a good race today, hope for some on track action and maybe a post-race fight. Hopefully the NBC boys can find it within them to talk about someone other than the 8 drivers left in the chase. 52. Spen posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Their numbers for the 2011-present systems do have to be taken with a small grain of salt: it seems like they used whatever point system was actually used that year to do their calculations. Using the current 43-1 system creates small variances in point positions at times (for instance, under the Latford system last year Matt Kenseth scored more total points than Ryan Newman, while 43-1 gave the reverse outcome.) I would say that at least 9 times out of ten, it won't change anything significantly, it does have the potential to change the exact makeup of the final four. Which on one occasion in the '70's, gave Dick Brooks a championship. I do have to wonder what exactly they used as a tie-breaker for the "most wins" championship. Normally, NASCAR breaks ties based on wins, followed by top-5's. Using that, Jimmie Johnson should have the most wins in 2012. However, they gave the award to Denny Hamlin. The only way this makes sense is if the award goes to whoever reached their win total first. But that in no way explains Davey Allison in '91. I'd say that overall, when given a choice, they simply decided to give it to anyone who wouldn't have a title any other way. Still, it's an excellent project, and one that I've been wanting to work on for a long time, but rarely have the chance to. I'd also like to see how these results would look for 1949-1974. As it stands, Jeff Gordon has the most potential titles with 13. I wonder how many Petty could have. Under standard systems, I can think of 10 years where he could win, but the 2014 system is random enough that he might have an extra couple. Furthermore, I'd like to see all 67 seasons done under a couple more systems. The 72-73 system could produce some interesting winners, what with the whole distance completed thing. Then there's the 68-71 system. It would need a slight modification to work today (I'd suggest using the 150 system for 500 mile races, 100 for 400 milers, and 50 for anything under), but still brings about the same basic setup as the chase, with a small number of races being given more weight, with the main difference being that there is actually a semi-legit reason for those races to be worth more. And of course, there's 74. If anyone can actually figure out how the heck to calculate that, it could give us some great "what-ifs". Can Derrike Cope win a title? And then there's all the various systems from 49-67. Unfortunately, the only one I really understand is the 49-51 system. And then there's always ARCA... But what I'd really like to know is, is there any system on Earth that can actually make Ricky Rudd a champion? He's the only driver with 20+ wins that doesn't have a title under any system devised. Even Jeff Burton got one! 53. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I actually mentioned on Reddit that I wanted to see 73 most of all because of how close It was in the end I think using the 2014 system Petty probably wins in 70 he came on so strong After his injury I don't think anyone would have beaten him. 54. Spen posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:40 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Given that he skipped the season finale, there's no way he could win 1970 under the current system. He'd win it under the most wins category, though. Under any chase system, Bobby Allison likely wins 1970. 55. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 12:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NASCAR breaks ties based on wins, followed by top-5's. Using that, Jimmie Johnson should have the most wins in 2012." Actually, it goes by wins, then second-place finishes, third, and so on. But since NASCAR devised the newer Chase format, they use some other method to break ties after the resets (I think drivers who won during the previous round are placed at the top, but I could be mistaken). 56. Matt Fink posted: 11.15.2015 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Interesting to see all the champions if this format had been around forever. Jeff Gordon only a 2 time champ, lol, and people say this format does not affect the deserving champion -_- 57. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 2:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How about that its raining in Phoenix 58. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 2:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mother Nature once again making her presence known during a NASCAR event this season. 59. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Again? Is the rain gonna clear up by 3pm? 60. TS1420 posted: 11.15.2015 - 2:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Figures. NASCAR goes out to the desert, and it rains. 61. Smiff_2 posted: 11.15.2015 - 2:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Man, we seriously can NOT catch a break with the f***ing weather this year! Maybe Mother Nature's a fan of how this once-great sport USED to be and had been trying to prove a point all year....lol 62. Sean posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Wow they changed the name of the race track. It's not like Gordon was great at Phoenix or anything." Yeah, really. He was consistent there, but it's one of the places where he has dominated least among tracks that have been there his entire stint as a Cup driver. It's a nice gesture I suppose, but I kind of find it lame. Not nearly as lame as 'DeLana International Speedway' though. 63. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @52,53 Do you want to see the 72-73 system applied to the rest of the modern era(72-present) or just the 73 season applied to the various chase systems? FYI, the '73 F1 Champ would be Pearson despite missing 10 races. 64. Mile501 posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm just curious...does anyone know if a Cup race at Phoenix has ever been rain-delayed before? 65. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mother Nature hates NASCAR 66. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The rain has stopped and the cars are uncovered. 67. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'm just curious...does anyone know if a Cup race at Phoenix has ever been rain-delayed before?" 1998 was rain shortened. 68. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:13 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I would be curious with the chase systems regarding 73 but at the same time without the chase using the current point system 43 - 1 and the same for 92 I want to know would it have been any closer how different it would have been without the chase as well as 79 considering how close it was. 69. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Rick if Jeff didn't have the back problems we wouldn't even be talking about this right now darn it. 70. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey how about that it just started raining again. 71. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Will Harvick have his Phoenix winning streak Rousey'd this afternoon 72. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It seems like the rain is almost done. 73. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 68, 43-1 system - 1973 Entering last race only 3 could win the title Petty 955 Yarborough -3 Parsons -9 Ended Yarborough 994 Petty -30 Parsons -32 43-1 system 1992 whole season Going into Atlanta D Allison 964 Kulwicki -8 Elliott -12 K Petty -23 Gant -25 Martin -37 End of season Kulwicki 1000 Elliott -1 D Allison -18 Gant -30 K Petty -31 Martin -60 Doing the chase for 1973 or any other year with 1973 scoring will take a while trying to figure out points accumulated for each race. 74. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Thanks for 92 I knew it would be even closer 1 point awesome. 73 I don't know if they might have been a little more conservative but because of how close it was I think they would have gone even harder who knows what would have happened. 75. Kenny posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) How much longer till the race starts guys? 76. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^No clue, but there's apparently even more rain coming to hit the track. If they race today it's definitely going to be a night race... 77. Spen posted: 11.15.2015 - 3:59 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Actually, I'm interested in seeing how the 72-73 system would look on every season in history. But obviously, I'm not picky, and I'll take any data you might have. 78. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Actually, I'm interested in seeing how the 72-73 system would look on every season in history. But obviously, I'm not picky, and I'll take any data you might have." Like I mentioned, that system is the toughest having to plot each driver's lap total and the point total for each track. I'm gonna have some spare time in airports traveling during the upcoming holidays, maybe I'll post it as I figure it out in a blog entry or in the Homestead thread in the winter. 79. Sean posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:23 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Kyle Petty just confused the Golden Rule with the Code of Hammurabi... 80. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Replaying Martinsville. That's not a good sign. 81. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The rain has stopped! Can we get this in? 82. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *Sigh* And now it's started raining. AGAIN. 83. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "It's raining in Phoenix, so let's show the entire red flag from Martinsville two weeks ago." 84. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the race runs tonight, It would be the first night race at Phoenix since 2010 and the first in the new pavment 85. Dave #38 Fan-Go Gilliland! posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Looks like if the race is run tonight, it will be on NBCSN. Sunday Night Football is coming up at 7:00 p.m. eastern and there's no way the race would be over by then even if it started right now. 86. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So they say it will stop raining at 5:30, and the race will start at 6:30-7. 87. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 4:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And we are back from commercial to show... more Martinsville. 88. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The invocation and the anthem are done, but track drying is still going. Looks like we won't even get the green flag on NBC, because at 6pm, they're switching to NBCSN. 89. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) With all the rain and the late start time let me be first to say harvick won't win tonight. 90. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If this race starts today, it will take place on NBCSN unfortunately for many people... Again... 91. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @85 beat me too it. 92. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 89, maybe a must-win, like either of the Penske drivers, will be the winner. They'll probably take crazy risks. 93. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Now they're saying the rain won't stop until 6:15. Just postpone this already. 94. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 90, I live nearly 2 hours away from the nearest NBC, so online's my only option for watching either way. If we had a roof antenna, it would be different. 95. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) dennyfan11, Do you know if it's 6:15 Eastern Time or 6:15 Mountain Time? 96. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) dennyfan, I doubt they will since Phoenix is 2 hours behind and supposedly NASCAR has a policy to always try to get a race run on it'd scheduled day. BTW a little fact about Arizona: It is the only state that doesn't observe Daylight Savings time( not that it matters of course in relation to racing here). 97. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They're showing the same freaking Martinsville race, for like the 5th time. Getting annoying. 98. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 93, um... Phoenix has lights. Maybe they'll start it at 7-something and have a night race. I saw something about Air Titans. 99. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now they're saying it's not going to stop until 6:45 Eastern Time. 100. dennyfan11 posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Race apparently starting at 8 PM. 101. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 5:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well, this is gonna change a lot of people's strategies considering it's gonna be a night race... 102. BR549 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:01 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I like how everyone said Martinsville was a black eye for the sport because of the Joey Logano/Matt Kenseth incident. Where do they start the race replay from? Kenseth vs. Logano Supposedly Brian France was big time against the incident, but loves the cash it brings in. 103. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Why did pheonix lose it's night race in first place? 104. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They are getting ready to show Talladega now. Channel change for sure. 105. BR549 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol another controversial race...Daddy Brian must be at the controls in the booth. 106. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) In all seriousness, I would have just called it and ran the race on Monday. The weather is gonna be a lot better, but at the same time, I definitely understand why they would want to get the race in today (or tonight). And as far as moving the race to NBCSN, this I kind of agree with, because they can only talk about Jeff Gordon and the Kenseth/Logano incident so many times. I just wonder if NBC will be giving any updates on the race during SNF. And next week at Homestead is not looking any better. Rain expected all week. 107. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) For as much as they hate controversy they are sure loving to show it... But then again NASCAR is a double edged sword so I'm not really surprised. 108. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:13 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) The more controversial a race is, the better and more of a classic it actually is. Well, at least in Brian France's book... 109. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) But again, why is it that the France family will always be the leader? NASCAR is resembling a dictatorship than a democracy. If the fans ran the sport and had more input, then I think NASCAR would still be at its peak. 110. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @ 77, here's the top 20 in points going by the 72-73 points system where points were given for laps completed. Despite being taken out by Kenseth and his own issues at Texas, Logano would still have a decent lead over Dale Jr and Harvick. With a max of 606 points left(281 at PHX, 325 at Homestead), 11 drivers would still be eligible for the title. 1) Logano 9320.90 Leader 2) Earnhardt Jr -193.50 3) Harvick -199.50 4) Keselowski -238.50 5) Johnson -334.75 6) Truex Jr -383.25 7) Hamlin -430.25 8) Gordon -490.75 9) Edwards -497.00 10) Newman -499.25 11) McMurray -518.25 12) Menard -687.50 13) Kenseth -830.25 14) Biffle -858.00 15) Almirola -877.50 16) Bowyer -893.75 17) Kurt Busch -1107.25 18) Kahne -1126.25 19) A Dillon -1136.50 20) 'Dinger -1148.00 111. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "If the fans ran the sport and had more input, then I think NASCAR would still be at its peak." I wouldn't go THAT far...What if the peanut gallery fans were the ones in charge of the sport? You know, the ones who always complain about how things are until NASCAR changes it for them, and then promptly turn around and cry about the changes and beg to have things changed back to how they were before? 112. BR549 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I loved Greg Biffle's strategy for the end of this race still...Brillant if it could've played out. 113. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah good point lol. But basically the problems of NASCAR all stem from its leadership. 114. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:27 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "NASCAR is resembling a dictatorship than a democracy." That is precisely how Bill France Sr. wanted it. He believed that if the drivers had too much of a voice, that it would ruin the sport. Hence his repeated clashes with attempted unionizers. Too bad he didn't figure on having a clueless grandson who would eventually run the family organization. 115. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Lol at one of Dale Jr's latest tweets. 116. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Yay, we got to see Harvick purposely wreck half the field to stay in the Chase at Talladega again! Keep reminding me why few people actually want him to win the title... 117. DARoot posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone know what the status is for the race? 118. Sean posted: 11.15.2015 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You know, the ones who always complain about how things are until NASCAR changes it for them, and then promptly turn around and cry about the changes and beg to have things changed back to how they were before?" Different people complaining I daresay. I was indifferent on GWC when it was introduced in Cup, but turned hard after I saw how it was (not) working in Cup. I did not want shootout style restarts at all but it got forced down my throat. Both of those were essentially decided by a majority of fans, so one can argue NASCAR is too democratic now. Some chase defenders criticize people like me who criticized the original Latford points system for rewarding mediocrity too much. When people like me then criticized the chase, there was a contingent who said I shouldn't complain because I wanted the points system to change. Never mind that this wasn't the change I had in mind. I don't think most fans are that hypocritical, it's just the same dueling contingents having the same arguments again and again years afterward. I don't know how many people have actually changed sides. 119. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's raining again, according to Rodney Childers' Twitter feed. 120. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Meanwhile this is the latest article on Yahoo News: "Some people thought NBC's Martinsville rain delay replay was live." That is hilarious! 121. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) #120...Hey, they thought the replay of the 2013 Daytona 500 they showed during the rain delay in last year's 500 was live as well. People were congratulating Jimmie Johnson on being a three-time 500 winner... ...so it doesn't surprise me that some of the more ignorant, inattentive people out there would mistake a replay of the Martinsville race for the live broadcast. 122. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If there are no more rain showers after this recent one, are they gonna start racing around 7:30-8 MT? I really think they should run the race Monday afternoon at 2pm or 3pm on NBC. 123. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Sheesh, this rain delay has been so long they're going to get to show us the final stages of ALL three races run previously to this one... 124. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.15.2015 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I wonder what Ben Lowe thinks about what just happened in the Patriots/Giants game? 125. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At post 124: It was a nail-biter that's for sure 126. Matt Fink posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well considering I'm on the east coast, and have school tomorrow, I'd like to see this race get underway soon. 127. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:14 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) So I get home to find out that we're under yet another one of NASCAR's 10-hour long affairs of "when the f**k will we run this race???" Seriously, just postpone the damn thing already. 128. Anonymous posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:17 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) Anyone who wants this race postponed, give this comment a thumbs up 129. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) In other news (not racing related) the Redskins WON 47 TO 14??? Is this real life??? 130. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Can someone tell me what the "500" is in the name? It's 312 laps for 312 miles...is it 500 Kilometers or something? 131. Matt Fink posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes... 500 kilometers 132. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) The previous Phoenix race took 3:38:38. I say if it gets to 9:30 ET and they haven't started it, then I say postpone it. 133. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Drivers have been called to their cars. Looks like they're gonna go racing tonight... 134. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Drivers have been called to their cars, the race is gonna attempted to be started at 7pm local, 9 eastern. 135. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like that nascar is trying to run the race tonight people in Arizona do have work and school tommorow so trying to get it in tonight is the right move and besides its only like 5 or 6 pm out there anyway. 136. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I think not postponing it was a good call. It will be 10:00 in Phoenix when it's over and about midnight on the East Coast. 137. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) No, actually Big Mac, its a horrible call. People have to go to work and school tomorrow and can't stay up all night watching the end of the race. Sunday Night races are okay when the Monday is a holiday (like the Coke 600) and races that start Sunday in mid to late afternoon (like next weeks race which I believe starts around 4:00) are okay. But you don't start a race at 9:00 when people have to go to work or school the next day. 138. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No, actually Big Mac, its a horrible call. People have to go to work and school tomorrow and can't stay up all night watching the end of the race." It's not even 7:00 in Phoenix yet. It's fine. 139. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No, actually Big Mac, its a horrible call. People have to go to work and school tomorrow and can't stay up all night watching the end of the race." Teams have another race to go to that's all the way across the country from Phoenix, and postponing the race means one less day for them to plan for it. Good call by NASCAR. 140. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 8:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I would start it tomorrow at 6:00 Eastern Time (3:00 Phoenix time). 141. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) why would u start it tommorow 3pm Pheonix time????? they do have a busy week coming up with the championship weekend and with the cross country travel. 142. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 9 PM EST/7 PM Local but we finally have the command to start engines. LET'S GO NIGHT RACIN'! 143. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The cheers are thunderous as the engines are FINALLY fired more than 6 1/2 hours after the original scheduled start. Well, this is gonna be a late one, but at least they'll have it over and done with tonight! 144. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brian France and nascar have to have some time to draw up how there gonna fix the races in Homestead to screw over whoever. 145. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not to mention that postponing the race means hotel reservations for a LOT of fans in Phoenix. That is, if they don't leave altogether because they can't miss a day of work. 146. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cars are rolling out of the pits onto the track. 147. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now the jet dryers are back on the track. Right when I thought we were finally going to get this Juan underway. 148. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Considering how wet the dogleg in the backstretch is, I can only wonder if anyone's gonna be crazy enough to try taking that shortcut... 149. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) For those watching on NBCSN, how many times have the commentators actually called the track "Jeff Gordon Raceway"? 150. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^More than a few times. 151. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "^More than a few times." Oh, really? MRN is about 50/50 so far. 152. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So the race isn't starting anytime soon right? Oh well, back to work. 153. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nevermind, I guess the track is wet but they're starting. 154. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Pretty soon, they either have to bring them back in or start the race green/yellow. 155. Canadianfan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I have to admit it looks like it's spitting a little bit still. 156. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) At this point the race is going to start under green/yellow for the second time in a month. 157. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Okay everyone, I'm about to say something positive about Joey Logano. His paint scheme for this race is really cool looking. 158. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does anyone else expect a 2001 All Star race type crash at the start? 159. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They've run...what, 20 pace laps now? 160. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MRN says green in two laps. 161. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Great crowd for a rain delay. 162. NASCAR8824 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) We are green finally!!! 163. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The stands are still packed despite the delay. 164. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Possible ish-shoe for Jamie Mac 165. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) McMurray has a problem. Of course. 166. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) McMurray has a big time tire rub. Kurt Busch apparently jumped the start. 167. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Typical NASCAR inconsistency. 168. NASCAR8824 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really nascrap....... 169. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch can't afford to ignore the black flag, but he does. 170. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? He barely beat him to the line. NASCAR doing all they can to screw Kurt. 171. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) MacMary blowing up? 172. that e-guy posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not even to the first caution and already I want to change the channel. 173. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Add yet another chapter to the list of ways NASCAR has screwed with Kurt this year... 174. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:32 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) They showed a replay and Kurt did jump the start, he beat polesitter Jimmie Johnson to the line and you aren't allowed to do that. Kurt gets a pass-through penalty and drops all the way back to 43rd after doing so...BUT he didn't lose a lap in the process. 175. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Can't beat the leader on the initial start. If that was a restart, it would be completely legal. 176. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With the competition caution at lap 40 and drivers not allowed to fuel before then, I wonder if they'll even MAKE it to lap 40 with all the pace laps they ran. 177. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ricky is right behind his girlfriend. 178. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Jimmie Johnson said it best. "Let the drivers police themselves." No idea why that was a penalty, can't the 2nd place car beat the leader if they spun the tires? 179. Mamorese posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:34 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) So you clowns who call out nascar for bs officiating are claiming they should not penalize Busch because he was "just slightly in front of the 48" Hilarious 180. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I can't ever remember a single time before tonight where anyone else was penalized for jumping the initial start of the race. 181. Matt L posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was just dumb. Busch is supposed to anticipate Johnson spinning his tires or not getting a good start? It used to be you just had to give back the spot in case this happened. 182. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1st time I've ever seen a driver meeting to show a rule. 183. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently they said in the drivers meeting that the polesitter must lead the first lap. So now I can see why they called that. 184. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I can't ever remember a single time before tonight where anyone else was penalized for jumping the initial start of the race." There have been a few occasions I can think of. I remember at Bristol once ('02, I think?) Robby Gordon got penalized for jumping the start. Rusty Wallace also got penalized for jumping the start at Pocono back in '98, as well. I'm sure there are more examples... 185. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That's a really rookie mistake by Kurt, here he comes back though. He's already back up to 35th. 186. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 177- maybe he'll bump her from behind (sorry couldn't resist lol) 187. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt is getting ready to lose a lap as he is having a hard time navigating the slower traffic... 188. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I remember at Bristol once ('02, I think?) Robby Gordon got penalized for jumping the start." Yeah. And then he drove pissed off for the rest of the race and wound up starting a big fight with Dale Jr and the #8 crew on pit road afterwards. 189. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick already up to second. Lest you forget this has become his personal playground as of late... 190. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Kurt Busch is gonna be saved by the yellow 191. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Competition yellow comes out just in time to save Kurt Busch (who had raced his way back into the top 30). 192. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (4) 186, they have wrecked before. She's not good, but neither is Roush equipment. Should Roush have a better environment next year, then I might be able to admit what I can't yet. There's no way to be sure it's not just the environment at Roush, at this time. Maybe, maybe not. 193. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cars are coming down pit road to try to help dry it before they make their pit stops. 194. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) @192 here we go again. 195. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson takes four while Harvick and many others took 2. Matt DiBenedetto hit Junior and Kahne and missed his pit stall completely. 196. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Most take 2, Dos Jotas is the first off with 4. No video proof, apparently DiBenedetto played a game of whack-a-Hendrick 197. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:51 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) #192 The weekly "Why Trevor Bayne Is A Phenomenal Young Talent Trapped In Horrendous Equipment" spiel, courtesy of his #1 fan racefangurl. How many times do I have to mention this is getting old? 198. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jimmie Johnson too fast on pit road (under caution?) and Danica Patrick's crew over too soon...penalties for both. 199. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @197 she'll mention this till roush becomes good again. Even then when Trevor bayne still isn't running good she'll blame the environment of the team. 200. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Johnson got nabbed for speeding and so will restart at the back of the field. Logano up to second on the restart. 201. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Edwards with a Jeff Gordon re-start on the Jeff Gordon Raceway 202. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Havick used to finish 2nd to Joey. Now, it's Joey behind Harvick. It may not be the end of the race, but it's still the reverse of what we've seen. 203. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior takes second. 204. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:54 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I'm Jimmie Johnson! Boom! Speeding penalty! 205. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Preece, Ellis, and Gase round out last. Not much of a surprise. 206. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) "Every spot that Joey Logano falls behind the race leader...the opportunity for Logano to win this race in a must win situation continues to fall." Any school that have Rick Allen a diploma or degree should be discredited. 207. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I meant gave, of course I fumble that. 208. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick is leading as usual. 209. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) 199, I'll only blame the team environment while's it's this bad. Roush has had handling issues all year and that makes it hard to not blame that. Should Roush not have issues anymore in the future, there'll be nothing to blame. I only blame the driver in a Danica-type situation. Her teammates have run better than her, except perhaps Tony Stewart lately. However, he used to be better than her. In a nutshell, if somebody on a team is good, but any non-rookie teammates aren't, that means the driver is underperforming. If nobody on the team runs good, then the team isn't good at this time. 210. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Casey. Mears. 15th. Just sayin'. 211. C posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He went to Nebraska 212. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 199- No, she'll mention it until Bayne gets fired by Roush and ends up at Front Row Motorsports. Then it'll be the weekly argument of "Front Row Motorsports sucks! If Trevor were with a decent team he'd be winning races!" while Bayne is being outperformed by Gilliland every week. 213. Christian posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) And Harvick to the front like usual at this track. Guess I'll do something else then. 214. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Gilliland is not outperforming Bayne. 215. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior is just a little over a second behind Harvick. 216. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, I think I'm over "Jeff Gordon Raceway". 217. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:05 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) But there is no more excuses for Bayne. 218. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Of course Junior runs well now that he's out of the chase. And just think, if that BS didn't happen at the end of the Talladega race, he'd probably be sleepwalking his way into the final four right now. 219. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) @218 You can blame Harvick manipulating the finish at Dega all you want. But we don't *know* if Junior would beat Logano in the GWC. Handing Jr. the win is nothing short of foolish. 220. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 212, Front Row is a junk team. And if Roush fires Bayne, then I'd say something like "Trevor should go into ministry now.". I go to a church that launched a couple into ministry when I was a kid. The woman has MS, only she's more affected than Trevor (she can't walk unaided). She's older and has had it longer, though. If it's ok for her to be in ministry, then it's ok for him. 221. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Timmy Hill has gone to the garage. 222. Flywheel89 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:13 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) @180 Seem to recall Ernie Irvan jumped the start at Sonoma back in '92 or '93, came back, and won the race. Gotta love newbie fans. 223. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 214, Gilliland's team has an alliance with Bayne's team, but they're not true teammates. 217, there's no excuse for the Roush teams to run this way. Whatever is so bad in Roush's environment needs to change. They need to handle like they did in 2012 and catch up in the simulation. They were good then and need to find a way to get back up there. 224. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Logano moves back to second. 225. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'd rather comment on the 2015 Quicken Loans Race for Heroes 500, not the 2015 Why is Roush so Terrible this Year 500. 226. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going to have some green flag pit stops pretty soon if they stay green... 227. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Sparkle Pony just went a lap down, expect the race to be under caution when it comes back from commercial. 228. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All eight of the remaining contenders are in the top eleven positions. 229. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) 227, they'll find some debris. You can always find debris on the track if you look for it. 230. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior has reclaimed second as Kyle Busch has caught Logano for third. 231. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) If it's Harvick-Logano at the end, will Joey make Harvick Have-A-Wreck or has he learned not to channel his inner Dale Earnhardt? 232. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This race has been really meh so far. Hope it picks up. 233. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alex Bowman is 30th and is the leader of the TEB. 234. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not a whole lot of action so far, but then again, we're still not even halfway. Logano is the first of the frontrunners to hit pit road. 235. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Alex Bowman is 30th and is the leader of the TEB." You are literally the only person who refers to the low budget equipment (and the Roush cars) as the Terrible Equipment Brigade... 236. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 234, maybe he's taking four tires and wanted to pit 1st because of that. Or he could be taking a risk, perhaps banking on being FIFO. 237. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It has been an hour since the race started and we're already thirty-five laps from halfway. 238. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Long pit stop for Kyle Busch. 239. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) racefangirl's hero gets a speeding penalty. 240. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick has been blazing fast. 241. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ok, ok. I admit it. I'm a NASCAR nut. 242. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now he goes fast... 243. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:28 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Trevor Bayne gets a penalty for speeding. Racefangurl will probably say that Roush has terrible brakes. 244. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rain showers are apparently in the area once again. Oh joy... 245. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 239, he's done that before. One time, he sped on pit road at Vegas. He speeds on the road, too. There was a time he said he had 10 tickets for going like 10 mph over the speed limit. 246. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nearly 100 laps of green flag racing since the competition caution. If they stay green this race would be over in a heartbeat. I doubt they'll go green all the way to the checkered flag, however... 247. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) I have to hand it to NASCAR. 132 lap green flag run at Dega, 100+ at Texas and 100+ here. Glad that they haven't bunched up the field. 248. Sector posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Anyone know where to stream the race? 249. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 243, anyone can get a speeding penalty. I don't explain those away by blaming brakes. However, race cars don't have speedometers, so they don't know their exact speed at a given time. It just happens. I'm sure even legends, like Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart have sped on pit road already. It's not just that David Ragans, Sam Hornish, Jrs. and Landon Cassills that speed. 250. Anonymous posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) I wish a black cat would cross the track in front of Harvick. 251. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With weather in the area, NASCAR isn't going to be throwing questionable cautions. Once the race gets close to, or past halfway, I think we'll see one. 252. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'll be back later. 253. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) It might rain again. Are you f***ing serious? 254. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Logano is 2nd to Harvick again. I thought he might be 2nd to Harvick today. If Joey can catch Harvick, I'd rather see him pass clean or else just tap him. 255. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Well I see both of the Bayne apologists misinterpreted my comment (212). Never did I say that Gilliland is outperforming Bayne. Read it again. 256. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Halfway. This race is official. 257. Anonymous posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Not a Harvick fan and besides, he doesn't need to win at Phoenix again. 258. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Past the halfway point already. 259. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If it rains now, I'm pretty sure that they will call it. 260. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rain less than 15 minutes away. Yep, doesn't look like this race is going all the way... 261. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey Gase has joined Hill in the garage. 262. DB1995 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) I got school at 7:30, so going to bed. See you guys at Daytona, unless I hear in the morning that someone pulls a miracle and beats Harvick. 263. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Front Row and roush do not have an alliance they just use Roush Yates engines cause all Ford teams use them but penske has his specially modified. Front Row builds there own cars and chassis no help from Roush. 264. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) A scenario that I thought of on Friday: Harvick is leading and Logano is second on a late race restart. As the checkered flag is in the air, Logano wrecks Harvick, like Edwards wrecked Keselowski at Gateway. It's intentional, which technically means the manipulation of a race, but it's also for the win, which Brian France encourages. What happens? 265. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There's Biffle, saving gas again. 266. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey was catching Harvick, but the latter has pulled away again. 267. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "What happens?" Brian France urinates himself in sheer delight at what this new Chase system has led to? 268. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "What happens?" Brian France adds a special 5th seed for Homestead. 269. that e-guy posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:50 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "What happens?" A fight and Brian France smokes a cigar with a smile. 270. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martin Truex Jr. is slipping down the leaderboard, and Carl Edwards is beginning to catch up to him in points. 271. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 130+ lap green flag run. Almost forgot that NASCAR keeps Jacques on the sidelines in a rain delay situation... Harvick is getting ready to lap into the top 10. 272. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder if Harvick will get caught in traffic. I don't think he deserves to advance. 273. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) OK everyone under 18 go to bed Lol. You guys got school in the morning. 274. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "What happens" Someone punches Brian France in the jaw 275. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "I don't think he deserves to advance." Yeah, no. 276. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just let the drivers race in the rain as punishment for this Atrocious season 277. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Green flag pit stops coming up again. Wow, maybe we might actually go green all the way to the checkered. That'd be neat to see a race with just 1 yellow flag... 278. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 10:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) C'mon Harvick. Have an engine failure. (race fans wish drivers they don't like to have engine failures) I don't think he deserves to advance because he manipulated the Chase at 'Dega. 279. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Joey Gase crashes hard. 140+ run ends. 280. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) HUGE crash on the track during green flag pit stops. Joey Gase has destroyed that car... This is gonna shake things up big time. How many cars will have to take the wave-around? 281. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gase crashes. Caution. And now this will shake up the running order... 282. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "race fans wish drivers they don't like to have engine failures" Well, shoot. I guess I have to turn in my credentials for wishing Lewis Hamilton to lose his nose cone that one time. Stenhouse and Joey Gase wreck. 283. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse also involved. 284. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe he can speed exiting pit road or have a loose wheel and come back. Or how about too many man over the wall? His team could have fuel cell issues, so he runs out of gas. HarvICk. 285. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wrecky to the garage 286. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse was also involved as he is limping the garage with a pancaked right side. Seems the two got together going into turn 3 and both crashed quite hard. 287. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Stenhouse and Gase crash in turn 3 after contact, I don't think either of those Ford Fusions will continue. 288. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick and Logano were on the lead lap when the caution came out, so this benefits them big time. Kyle is also on the lead lap, while Truex is not. 289. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:03 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "OK everyone under 18 go to bed Lol. You guys got school in the morning." It's only eight for the young fans in California...and six for our Hawaiian fans. 290. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Stenhouse and Gase crash in turn 3 after contact, I don't think either of those Ford Fusions will continue." They might be able to repair the #17, but Gase is definitely done as that car has no back end left. 291. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Apparently Joey Gase wasn't in the garage. 292. 42KylePetty42 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Can you believe that s---! Half the chase field on pit road, half hasn't durning green flag pit stops and some idiot running 10 laps down decided to crash! 293. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Stenhouse drove into that corner like he was still in that 2008 Toledo ARCA race. 294. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wrecky strikes again! 295. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "and six for our Hawaiian fans." Have there actually been any fans posting here from Hawaii? 296. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's only 10:00 here and I usually stay up way later than that. 297. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Apparently Joey Gase wasn't in the garage." He was listed as "OFF" for a time but had rejoined the race. I believe he was about...35 laps down or so when he wrecked. 298. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) An Open Letter to Race Fans: Did You Cheer Knowing A Driver Could Die? That's where that thing about race fans wishing a driver that don't like would have engine failures came from. Fans might also hope their personal villain sits on tack, according to that frontstretch.com article. 299. Smiff_2 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I really hope Truex can recover from this.... 300. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior ends up being the leader when this is all said and done. 301. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wow, huge break for Junior. 302. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Almirola and Newman got back on the lead lap due to not having pitted yet. 303. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They literally went to and from commercial in 15 seconds. Now that's sad. 304. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 294, it seemed like he was over that, but a leopard can't change its spots, I guess. Either that or he overdrives his cars. He has had plenty of times he ran decent and then BANG! Wrecky comes out. 305. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) They literally went to and from commercial in 15 seconds. Now that's sad. At least it's during a long yellow this time. A couple times this year esp. during the long Talladega run, they came back to green flag racing for literally one lap. 306. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Take your sweet ass time NASCAR. It should not take 10 minutes to clear one car... 307. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I really hope Truex can recover from this...." He would still be poised to make the final round as of now (he runs 14th as Edwards is 12th). 308. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'm pretty sure I remember there being one person who is a semi-regular poster here who is from Hawaii. 309. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) MRN mentions "Jeff Gordon Raceway" for only about the second time, and both times they were discussing the name change itself. 310. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) With pending rain, I see Logano or someone else outside of the cut throwing a Hail Mary into the first turn as an act of desperation. 311. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rain is quickly approaching the track. They'd better hurry if they want to get the full distance in... 312. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Going green next time after about 15 laps under caution. 313. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) After the lack of cautions, NASCAR had made this extra long. But one to go, so the restart will happen this lap. 314. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Brett really wants that extra bonus point for leading the most laps 315. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) f**kING GO GREEN ALREADY JESUS!!!! IT SHOULD NOT TAKE THIS LONG FOR A ONE CAR ACCIDENT!!! 316. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Brett has a shot tonight. He hasn't won since 1990. 317. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Nope, they added another extra lap. Let's just keep them under caution until it rains... 318. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NBCSN obviously hasn't mentioned the jet dryer that's stuck on the track. 319. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) THEY HAD 15 MINUTES f**k YOU!! 320. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) And we add another lap, as sure enough, it begins to rain. 321. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 315 It was a two car incident... 322. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) RAIIIINN!! 323. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR dicked around too long under this caution... 324. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now it's raining. 325. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Welp Jr is leading who's thought he may win this race. 326. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If I was Keselowski, a guy who has an average car, I would pit with one to go and hope it turns into a fuel mileage race. I don't think this rain will be a factor. There is a bigger system that should approach within 50 laps, or so. 327. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now its raining! So we're still not going green. You know, if Junior steals this win that would sort of make up for Talladega I guess. 328. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Expecting the red flag to be out when they come back from commercial... 329. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It depends how soaked the track becomes, it took about 75-90 mins to dry the track last time. So if this soaked the track enough it will likely be to late to go green again after the big cell hits. 330. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) What a joke of a series. If it takes 15 minutes to take one car off the track. I've seen Talladega big ones cleaned faster than this!!!! DISGUSTING!! 331. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @330 it took 47 mins to clean up the track in may when the big one happens. 332. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #328 Nope. 333. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junebug has two prior wins at Phoenix but he hasn't won here in 11 years. Could he shatter his streak tonight with a little help from the heavens? 334. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 20+ lap caution. 335. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Which was Degas big one. 336. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Still puttering around under caution I see... 337. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If they call this, I don't think they'll do it soon. We'll be up until 2:00 AM on the East Coast before they cancel it. 338. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) Now, Harvick will advance. PU. 339. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yes, we already know Logano is in a must-win situation... 340. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, seriously, NASCAR. How long do you plan to keep the cars on the track while it's raining? 341. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If the red flag for rain comes out ima go to bed. 342. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This is a long caution, even for my taste" - Brian Barnhardt 343. Anonymous posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Atrocious race 344. 42KylePetty42 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR officials SUCK! They all deserve to be fired!!! They are slooooow as h--- these days! They dicked around for 19 laps under caution for a simple one car accident until it then, starts raining. I remember 1993 at Talladega, a car flipped, went over the wall where Stanley Smith was serious injuried in the pile up & they got all that mess cleaned up in only 12 or 13 laps. 345. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) This will easily set the record for most laps under one caution at this rate. 346. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Does Phoenix have a curfew? It looks like there are some homes near the track. 347. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) TWENTY-FIVE laps under caution now. 348. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "This will easily set the record for most laps under one caution at this rate." Probably not distance though, Richard Petty's flip at Daytona in 1988 caused a caution that lasted more than 20 laps/50 miles. 349. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now they are pulling on to pit road. 350. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There bringing them down pit road. 351. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can't stay up until 2:00. Unless I take 1.5 hour nap, that is. Even if I'm a crazy NASCAR fan, which I've been accused of, I can't be too tired tomorrow. Going bowling. 352. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @346 No, there's really nothing around the track. 353. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And now the red flag is out. This might be it... 354. Sector posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:30 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "C'mon Harvick. Have an engine failure. (race fans wish drivers they don't like to have engine failures) I don't think he deserves to advance because he manipulated the Chase at 'Dega." Oh get real, you're only upset because Trevor Bayne was the victim of it all of the situation which is being "at the wrong place at the wrong time." Anything could have happened, everyone gets greedy, just let it go. Your obsession with Bayne is quite ridiculous. To say Harvick doesn't deserve to advance (or win a championship) because of one bad race just shows how one-sided you are. 355. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Does Phoenix have a curfew?" I don't know, but it's still only 9:30. 356. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The record I believe was Rockingham 2001 where there was a thirty lap caution. If we go back, we'll at least tie it. 357. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @354 I suppose that's racefangurl 358. RaceFanX posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Red Flag! 359. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) It looks like it's raining pretty good. Don't think they're gonna be racing anymore tonight... I bet NASCAR.com's comments is flooded with people calling for them to end the race so Junior can win, LOL 360. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sector put that perfectly. But she also doesn't want Harvick to win because that would eliminate Logano. 361. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Finally NASCAR puts the race under red. 362. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Covers on i guess we going back to rain delay. 363. The Long Shot posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick, Gordon, Ky. Busch and Truex are in position to advance. 364. Stewart14rocks posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Now there going to lose the track 365. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Big Junior fan here, but what a farce of a series. You had 15-20 minutes to get ONE CAR out, what a pathetic working force, and if I was your boss. You would be fired by now. They waited until the rain came to give a bs reason to end this. 366. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah, it's pouring right now. With another huge cell not far away, I don't foresee them getting back on the track tonight. Of course, I could be wrong... 367. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I think this is pretty much the end of the race. Unless they got to early morning like they did at Daytona. 368. Lila posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) NASCAR officials SUCK! They all deserve to be fired!!! They are slooooow as h--- these days! They dicked around for 19 laps under caution for a simple one car accident until it then, starts raining. I remember 1993 at Talladega, Jimmy Horton flipped, went over the wall landed in the parking lot where Stanley Smith was also serious injuried in the same pile up. NASCAR back then still got that mess cleaned up in only 12 or 13 caution laps & they can't figure out how to clean up a one-car crash in 20 laps in 2015? Yeah...it's time make a change in who runs the show 369. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) I'm Not a conspiracy theorist but NASCAR sure took their sweet ass time with that Caution period with Dale Jr in the lead It makes me wonder if the NASCAR officiating crew are a part of Jooonyeer Nation 370. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Downpour, show's over 371. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The track's lost, from what I'm seeing on television. With heavier rain behind, it will rain for another 90 minutes, at least. Unless they want to wait until at least midnight local time, this race is over. 372. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's pouring. Pretty bogus by NASCAR to take their time with the clean up. 373. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Unless they got to early morning like they did at Daytona." I wouldn't be entirely shocked if they did that just to make sure the weather doesn't determine who makes the championship round. Would they really wait until FIVE Eastern Time to restart the race, though? If they actually do that, no way in hell am I staying up to watch the finish... 374. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "I bet NASCAR.com's comments is flooded with people calling for them to end the race so Junior can win, LOL" And probably a lot more comments saying that if NASCAR doesn't restart the race, then its rigged for Junior, even if a meteor fell out of the sky and landed on the track then they MUST restart the race or else it is rigged for Junior. Sorry, a lot of that is probably my Junior fan point of view as I tend to notice the anti-Jr comments more often than the delusional JOOONYER NAYSHUN ones. 375. Ak47 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If the race ends right now, it seems so fitting for Gordon, Harvick, KyBusch and Truex to be the final four considering all the story lines that have surrounded each of them this season. In a fair world Logano would be in it, but NASCAR isn't fair. 376. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @375 As Keselowski said in his interview, it's not about being fair, it's all about pleasing the fans. 377. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Race over. Junior wins. f**k this race and f**k this series.... 378. murb posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Go Truex. 379. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That lightning bolt of cheers just told the story. 380. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Race over. Jr. wins. 381. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And, this joke of a system screws everything up. Again. 382. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The huge crowd cheer just told us what happened. Dale Jr. is your winner. Your final four is Gordon, Truex, Harvick, and Kyle Busch. 383. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Race over. Jeff Gordon, Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch, and Martin Truex, Jr. are your final four. 384. Chad's Hair Plugs posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) If you think Dos Jotas stole the win last week, this was highway robbery. 385. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And just like that, the race is over. Dale Jr. wins. If NASCAR hadn't hemmed and hawed on that last caution, they would have gotten a few more laps in. 386. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) That was definetly anti-climatic. 387. NadeauFan91 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Circumstances were kinda shitty but I don't care, I finally got to see Jr win this season after missing Dega and Daytona. 388. 1995z71 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) So glad Martin Truex Jr made the Final 4! 389. TS1420 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Harvick's streak ends due to a combination of Mother Nature and NASCAR's inability to clean up a single car in less than a half hour. 390. NASCAR Community posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) NASCAR called the race for rain so JOOOONYERR could win! 391. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Its official... and now since I called it prematurely at Talladega and it came back to bite me... DALE YEAH!!! 392. The Long Shot posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (6) (2) Manipulated race endings, lousy caution clean-ups, shitty suspensions, ridiculous fans, best driver of the year misses the final four. NASCAR can go to f*cking hell for all I care. 393. 88&4Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also, Kevin Harvick's streak is over. But he is in the final four. 394. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Second rain-shortened race of the year. Jesus, NASCAR, why did it take you FIFTEEN laps to clean up from one car? They were REALLY determined to be extra thorough cleaning it up, weren't they? They ended up screwing around so long that they prematurely ended the race thanks to the rain. Sorry, NASCAR...you dropped the ball on this one. So now, the question is: Who do you think will be our champion at Homestead? 395. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Look at the replay of the 1998 race. This is exactly the same, other than time of day. 396. Sector posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Three in a row for Hendrick. Kasey Kahne to win next. Who am I joking, let's hope for an entertaining battle next week. Definitely rooting for any of the four to win, but its hard not to root for Jeff Gordon being his final year! 397. BMan0213 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As a Jr fan I must say that might be the luckiest win in NASCAR history lol. That being said i'm very happy to see Harvick loose his streak here after the BS he pulled at Dega. Makes it even better Jr was the one who did it. 398. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Heart wants Gordon or Truex. Brain says Harvick or Busch :( 399. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) And Joey logano gets screwed 400. TheHardTooth2216 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:47 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) >.> This has to be one of the biggest fluke wins ever and because of NASCAR's terrible points system it completely ruins 4 drivers chances to even attempt to race there way in. Bravo, NASCAR, bravo. 401. The Long Shot posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) Defending champ: check Retiring legend: check Redemption story: check Feel-good story: check Most deserving driver: uhhhhh 402. Driver X posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) I will be happy with Gordon or Truex Jr. winning the chase. Neither Harvick or Kyle Busch deserve the title. 403. New Race Control Next Season Please posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's time to suspend John Darby, Mike Helton and everyone at Race Control for "manipulation" the end of a race! They were sorry, slow as h-ll not getting this race back under green for a few laps where it was absolutely unnecessary to run 20 caution laps for a one car accident before it started raining. TIME FOR ME TO TURN NA$CAR OFF 404. The Long Shot posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Gordon is your champion. Calling it now. Too good of a story for NASCAR not to do everything they can to make it happen. 405. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) "Heart wants Gordon or Truex. Brain says Harvick or Busch :(" Exact same thoughts here. I get the feeling it's definitely going to be Harvick or Kyle Busch. I personally don't want to see EITHER of them win...Yeah, Harvick has inarguably been one of the two best all year, but after that crap he pulled at Talladega...makes it DAMNED hard to pull for him. As for Kyle...still don't think he should've been given an exemption considering he missed a full third of the season. Yeah, he's behaved much better this year, and there would be the "heartwarming" factor of him coming back from a serious injury that threatened to derail his career (let alone his entire season), but I don't think it looks good to have a guy who missed THAT much of the season as your champion. Your mileage may vary, however... 406. BMan0213 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (4) (2) Lets be honest though the real winner tonight...... Matt Kenseth 407. NASCAR Community posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:51 pm Rate this comment: (3) (2) "Most deserving driver: uhhhhh" Had Logano not played games with Kenseth, he'd be there. 408. MAR posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Mixed emotions about homestead my favorite driver Kyle Busch finally has a shot at a championship but he doesn't deserve it and I think he will win it I'm rooting for Gordon and Truex 409. Lucstar88 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Had Logano not played games with Kenseth, he'd be there." Still.. This chase is a farce, without it, never would've happened. 410. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:53 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Yeah 407 was me. Anyways, somewhere Matt Kenseth has a smile on his face. 411. Schroeder51 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:54 pm Rate this comment: (3) (1) Logano misses the championship round? Matt Kenseth approves. 412. Stewart14rocks #truexnation posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Tbh 4 feel good stories in the final round. 413. David posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My order of preference for the title next week is Gordon (duh), Truex, Busch, and Harvick. Realistically, I'm expecting Gordon or Harvick to take it. As a matter of fact, I posted this on the Las Vegas race page: "If my wishful prediction of Jeff Gordon winning the title this year doesn't come true, I absolutely believe Harvick will pull off back-to-back titles. That team is on fire right now." 414. racefangurl posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex is my heart pick to win it all. 415. DB1995 posted: 11.15.2015 - 11:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Call a race before 10?Only NASCAR, see you for spreadsheets. This season was complete shit and I'm glad it's finally over for me 416. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) Dear Jr. Fans, If the 88's pit "screw" didn't have a fast stop and cross the line, he wouldn't have won. Sincerely, Big Mac Fan 417. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This chase system is horrible goodness. 418. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:02 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As a Jr fan I must say that might be the luckiest win in NASCAR history lol. That being said i'm very happy to see Harvick loose his streak here after the BS he pulled at Dega. Makes it even better Jr was the one who did it." Lucky, yes. But luckiest ever? I have two words for you. James Buescher 419. RaceFanX posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Call a race before 10?" It would probably be at least 11:30 local before you could have dried the track and restarted assuming the rain stopped immediately which it hasn't. The rain is predicted to continue off and on through 11:45 p.m. and you can't realistically restart the race after 1 a.m. 420. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) According to radar, the rain is mostly gone. It's approaching 10:00 PM locally, several hours earlier than the start of a 400 mile race a few months ago. 421. Sector posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) So Logano didn't make it. If he had won this race, I'd still think Kenseth would have done something sneaky at Homestead to ruin his chances from winning the Cup. Unless...Joey does something stupid :o Doubt it. Anyhow... Jeff Gordon: Definitely my favorite driver, I grew up with him as an idol of mine ever since I was a kid. So to watch him go out with a championship (I even requested the 22nd and 23rd off work just in case he happens to win the championship, so I can witness this live and absorb the emotions! Kyle Busch: I will be the first to say this; Kyle hasn't had a very...likeable past to many. However, his talent=undeniable. Him winning the Cup in his 30's was something I did predicted after his 2009 failure to make the Chase. Those races he missed is a bit of a turnoff, but hey, it is what it is. Kevin Harvick: Ironically has been my 2nd favorite driver since 2006. I was so excited to watch him race his way to the championship last year. He's had such a milestone career compared to everyone else (Taking over a ride after the death of a Legend, winning many jewel races overtime to win a championship with a brand new team in the first year!). I wouldn't mind seeing him go 2 for 2, but in all honesty, I don't want to see him winning two in a row. I'd like the other three to win, because it would make the championship this much more exciting. And no, unlike the rest of you, the Talladega ending never really bothered me. Martin Truex Jr.: Okay, check. I have a really good friend from Texas who loves him dearly. If he wins, I would be happy for both him and his team, as well as her! He would be the first "Jr" to win the Cup. A single car team to win a Cup in a long time? Let's call them Cinderella! I'd root: Jeff Gordon, Kyle Busch, Martin Truex Jr, Kevin Harvick in that order, but I'm okay with any of them. This is much better than last year (Ryan Newman & Denny Hamlin? Please lmao) 422. someone posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was preparing all week knowing Carl was highly likely to be eliminated... but I didn't want it to end like this :(. Well, congrats to Junior, and his fans. I'll be rooting for anyone at Homestead besides Harvick (though with slight bias towards Kyle Busch). Hopefully Carl can hang onto the "old chase" points lead, so I can whine about how this season was another one that got away from Carl! 423. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Nah, the luckiest is Brett Bodine. If wasn't for a scoring error, he wouldn't have won. 424. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:05 am Rate this comment: (1) (3) Easy big Mac I'm a Jr fan too but I agree the end was rigged for Jr to save the day. 425. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) And how is James Buescher lucky??? 426. BMan0213 posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Lucky, yes. But luckiest ever? I have two words for you. James Buescher" IDK man there's more skill involved missing a wreck than crossing the line in the pits right as the yellow comes out lol. Plus Jr. doesn't win if the rain doesn't come after that. The only one I can think of that might be luckier would be when David Green won at Bristol when Mark Martin went into the pits before the race ended. 427. RaceFanX posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) With both Penske cars eliminated Ford's title hopes go up in smoke again. The Blue Oval Boys haven't won a championship now in 11 years! 428. David posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And how is James Buescher lucky???" Did you see the ending of the 2012 Daytona Nationwide race?? 429. BMan0213 posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @425 He's talking about his Xfinity win at Daytona. You know the one where he was like 11th going into the last turn then everyone wrecked and he won. 430. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (0) (2) Like I've been saying there really isn't anybody left who I'd be completely satisfied with winning the championship. At this point though I think Harvick is my guy and I can forgive him for Talladega. Truex, as much as I'd love to see him take one for the underdogs, part of me doesn't want that to happen because its the first time he's ever even sniffed a championship and this season really has been the exception and not the rule for him. Gordon we'd never hear the end of (I'm actually very surprised that we didn't have to hear "Jeff Gordon Speedway" much at all today), and then there's Kyle Busch who should be pretty self explanatory. 431. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:11 am Rate this comment: (1) (5) NASCAR is officially dead to me 432. BMan0213 posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Nah, the luckiest is Brett Bodine. If wasn't for a scoring error, he wouldn't have won." That's true, but while the scoring error put him out front he still had to stay there. I think he "earned" that win more than Jr did tonight. 433. David posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "With both Penske cars eliminated Ford's title hopes go up in smoke again. The Blue Oval Boys haven't won a championship now in 11 years!" Kyle Busch will be Toyota's best hope to win a driver's championship in the top level of NASCAR since they entered the series. 434. Christian posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (3) (0) @427 That's OK, Roger's got the Xfinity Owner's Championship for the 3rd year in a row, and that's all that matters in this sport. 435. Big Mac & Gordon Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:13 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Even though the chase is a joke, I really like the final four. 3 of the 4 don't deserve it and I like all of them. Win-Win! Harvick: Easily deserving, I put Talladega behind because Matt vs. Joey has turned this into an even bigger circus. My third favorite, I would love to see him go back to back and he's the only deserving driver left. Kyle Busch: I used to not like him, but he's grown on me this season. While he missed 1/3 of the season, if he ran the full season he would be putting up championship caliber stats, so I wouldn't mind him winning THAT much. Truex, Jr.: Cinderella story, but his year has been about the same as Gordon's. I like him, and it would be perfect karma if Truex wins the title the year that MWR shuts down. Gordon: Love him, but it would be the weakest champion of all time, which makes we want him to win even more. I'll be cheering for Gordon above everyone else to win Homestead, but I would be great with any of them winning. 436. Sector posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just realized, Hendrick happened to have won at Jeff Gordon Raceway. Jeff Gordon's teammate, Dale Earnhardt Jr won it. Ironic, no? 437. Christian posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:15 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @433 Matt Kenseth in 2013? 438. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Just realized, Hendrick happened to have won at Jeff Gordon Raceway. Jeff Gordon's teammate, Dale Earnhardt Jr won it. Ironic, no?" The tinfoil hat brigade probably already beat you to that one... 439. David posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Matt Kenseth in 2013?" Kenseth was in a big points hole going into the final race, whereas Busch is on equal footing with the other three. 440. Sector posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:20 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The tinfoil hat brigade probably already beat you to that one..." Not surprised lmao 441. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was being sarcastic about buescher but I think that was more skill to miss 13 cars crashing in front of you. 442. Cooper posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:22 am Rate this comment: (6) (0) I don't post often because I just thoroughly laugh at NASCAR but I wanted to post this. Winning races is what this chase format is all about right?.... In the last 15 races the four remaining drivers have combined for TWO wins. 443. STATMAN posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) There was an 86 lap caution during the 1973 fall Richmond race. 444. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:24 am Rate this comment: (6) (1) "Logano misses the championship round? Matt Kenseth approves." The Logano fans on here won't like this, but actually a lot of the drivers have taken Kenseth's side in this. Hamlin has been the most vocal, but Edwards, Newman, Dale Jr, Truex, and Stewart are just a few others who have defended Kenseth as well. I get the feeling that Logano is not particularly popular among the other drivers. 445. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @434 that's the best thing I've ever seen you post. 446. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Dear Jr. Fans, If the 88's pit "screw" didn't have a fast stop and cross the line, he wouldn't have won. Sincerely, Big Mac Fan" Hey, even a blind squirrel... 447. Big Mac & Gordon Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In the last 15 races the four remaining drivers have combined for TWO wins." The chase is like a contract. The contract states that winning is the most important part of advancing and winning the title. But like all contracts, it has a loophole, 448. Big Mac & Gordon Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:27 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "NASCAR is officially dead to me" You've said that on several races. Is it on life support or something? 449. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Welp, I have to drive to school tomorrow so good night everyone. Junior won, the Skins won, and the Seahawks lost. Today was a good day. 450. Big Mac & Gordon Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Alright I need to get ready for school tomorrow as well. Goodnight, and I'll be back tomorrow morning. 451. Scott B posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Chevy clinched the manufacturer's championship tonight, if my math is correct. 452. Aaron posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:12 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) First time the Carolina Panthers and Dale Earnhardt Jr. both won on the same day, at least in events that mattered. Dale Jr. won an XFINITY race at Michigan in August 2006 and the Panthers beat the Steelers in a preseason game that day, but those wins pale in comparison to a regular-season Panthers 27-10 win over the Titans and Dale Jr. winning a Cup points race at Phoenix. In short, a wonderful day. 453. Aaron posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:20 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Has it ever happened before that a driver finishes last and first at the same track in a year? Dale Jr. was 43rd at Phoenix in the spring and 1st in the fall. 454. Ryan W posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:56 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) "And just like that, the race is over. Dale Jr. wins. If NASCAR hadn't hemmed and hawed on that last caution, they would have gotten a few more laps in." Really though, what would 5-10 green flag laps accomplished? They made the right decision. It was sprinkling and then it started to pour. 455. 23andJoe posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:04 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) >They literally went to and from commercial in 15 seconds. Now that's sad. It was sad when CBS did it in 1996, too. 456. BMan0213 posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:59 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) After thinking about it, I have to say one of the best parts of the race was Carl's interview at the end where he said he thought all the fans would want the race to go back green. Than just seconds later everyone started cheering when they said over the speakers that NASCAR had called the race and Jr was the winner lol. Call me crazy but i don't think many people there wanted the race to go back green. 457. Mike posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:07 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) To address several things I've seen here: As far as the caution length goes, several drivers were reporting weepers on the track, which I think is part of the reason NASCAR extended the caution. I feel like that's the reason there was a jet dryer in turn 4 every time the field went by. Some people were asking earlier if there were homes near the track - there is a housing development about half a mile behind the frontstretch, but that's about it. Basically, you have the frontstretch grandstands, Indian Springs Road, a parking lot, the Gila River, a walking trail and then houses. 458. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:33 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) There was a 100+ lap caution at Bristol in the 1960s due to the fence getting mowed down in a crash. 459. 23andJoe posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) #35 sponsor: Ferguson Enterprises 460. Anonymous posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alex, I think it was 1965. (Curiosity got the best of me and I checked.) 461. JG24FanForever posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:14 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Gordon: Love him, but it would be the weakest champion of all time, which makes we want him to win even more." Bill Rexford will always be the weakest Champion. At least for Gordon, and Rainbow nation, it would be an emotional and gargantuan piece of redemption for us after the 3 losses in '04,'07 and probably the worst one of all last year. Note: The last time Phoenix was rain shortened, Gordon went on to win the next race and simultaneously locked up the title. This could end up being an even more emotional send-off than is already expected. Next weekend is this biggest Nascar event since the passing of Big E, 14 years ago. 462. Nu3clear Wa4le posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:27 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor updates #17 - Cargill / Sam's Club #22 - Pennzoil Platinum #31 - Cat Global Mining / Cat Command #32 - RFactor2.net 463. Canadianfan posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I was going to mention this but I think when Joey and Ricky crashed it knocked some water that was loose behind the SAFER Barrier. That helped in lengthening the caution. 464. Peter posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:04 am Rate this comment: (2) (1) After all he and Sherry have been through it would be a truly heartwarming story if Truex Jr won the championship. Sucks for Carl, Brad and Kurt being denied a chance to race in though. Why not just run the last 100 or so laps the next day? This is everything a driver works for, and you're going to end their chances just like that. Total dick move. 465. HouseOfPenske posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:09 am Rate this comment: (8) (1) Breaking down the championship field. We have a guy who manipulated the outcome at Talladega, a guy who missed 3 months, and a guy handed a win by Kenseth's childish driving. Go Truex! 466. Cornys posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) So, apparently ISC is planning on moving the S/F line to the back stretch at some point. Seems dumb to me. So, I went to bed around 10:45 EST, but it seems as though there was a crash, the cars pitted and JR came out first, and then there was about 20 more laps of caution before it started to rain. Perfect. 467. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) This was Junior's payback for what happened at Dega. Unfortunately, Harvick got in on points. 468. 426hemi posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (5) #444 Tony Stewart opinion does not count. Although a great driver stewart has always had a false sense of reality. Probably why Harvick and him get along. Those 2 always think they can do whatever to anybody but cry when somebody does the same stuff to them. Of course Edwards would agree he should have been suspended for what he did to Brad Keselowski a few years ago. 469. Lucstar88 posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:02 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) So junior was inches away from making it to the final 4. Ah well... Can't win them all I guess. I can understand why Logano is hated, he's in that Kyle Busch stage of maturity, where it's still not there. EVEN though he handled the Martinsville interview way better than expected. It sucks, when the best car this year, is out because of a fluky chase system. Same with Gordon last year. The Chase will never change, because NASCAR never admits fault, for some reason... I enjoyed the 10 race format WAY better than this. 2011 was one of the best NASCAR years in recent memory. It sucks that as a big 88 fan. I hardly celebrated this win, this whole season has been bad. I'll still watch, because of the drivers I enjoy watching. But this is not the sport I fell in love with 10 years ago at Chicagoland. 470. Lucstar88 posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) Wanted to add that all the 88 wins this year, it's been surrounded by incidents. Phoenix : Rain win. Talladega : Yeah, he dominated, but nobody else wanted to win which kinda sucked. Daytona : 4 am here where I live and Dillon hit the fence, there was 0 celebration for that. Sorry for the book I just wrote XD 471. Scott posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:22 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) 15 laps to clean up one car. Where as they can go back green in 4 laps after a big one at Dega. When they came back from the commercial after the wreck I was expecting them to get the one to go in a lap or 2. When I saw the car was still sitting there on the track. I was honestly shocked. And the workers just seemed to not moving fast at all, just taking their time. They call the race at only 9:45 where as a few years back at Daytona we raced till 2 am. Not a conspiracy theorist, but have to think this is all cause Jr was leading. 472. Nascar Lead Lap Points posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:46 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor Updates #10 GoDaddy/Thank You Danica & NASCAR #16 Jardiance Empagliflozin Tablets/Jardiance.com #47 Fry's/Clorox/Scott Prod./Hungry Jack #34 Dockside Logistics #23 Dr. Pepper/Estes Express Lines (Same at Texas II) #40 Interstate Moving Services / Precon Marine #62 Prairie Auto Credit 473. Nathan8848 posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:09 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) PIR is thinking about putting the start-finish line on the back stretch. It's in their Master Plan. 474. Nathan8848 posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoops. Sorry, missed comment 466. 475. JGFan24Ever posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:18 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @471, The difference is that, the Daytona race wasn't in the Fall time, and hadn't been delayed for over 7 hours, like this race was. For them to call it when they did was perfectly understandable, and I'm glad they did because I think everyone was tired of running the race out over such a long period of time. 476. Scott B posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Ratings on this one are not going to be pretty. Rain in the desert, can't really blame that one on Brian France, even though I'd like to. 477. Cornys posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:36 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "NASCAR Sprint Cup Series "1.32 rating NBCSN 9:30 pm Sunday Quicken Loans Race for Heroes 500 (Phoenix)" These are overnight numbers of course. Credit: Skedball on showbuzzdaily 478. Cornys posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, Kurt Busch DIDN'T lead the first couple of laps? I don't see how the penalty would warrant taking those laps lead and giving them to Jimmie Johnson. It's a DT, but it was served on lap 5, not immediately after they crossed the line to start the race. 479. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:47 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Didn't get to comment after early last night, so here goes: Well, That ending was a big buzz kill for sure, even as a Jr. fan I really was wishing they could keep racing(a rain shortened win just isn't the same), but the weather in 2015 just hates NASCAR. At least Joey Logano knows how Jr. felt after Talladega(almost the same situation in reverse) now. 480. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:59 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I agree with Ryan W. I will be the first to say that the clean up for whatever reason was abnormally long. So let's hypothetically say that they had restarted the race about 3 laps earlier. Then it pours. Wouldn't it be worse if you a 2001 Charlotte All-Star type crash where the cars - maybe even title contenders - crash? While a proper ending would have been nice, keeping it under caution was probably the best option. 481. Scott B posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Cornys, thanks for the numbers. I tuned in about 30 seconds before the race was officially called. You didn't miss anything, post-race celebration was pretty low-key. I'll probably be tuned in next week to get my racing fix to last till Daytona. Haven't watched any of the Chase races so far (unless you count last night's post-race). 482. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) And this format is about winning, right? Johnson and Kenseth have more wins than the final four has combined and they aren't even going to finish in the top 10 in points. 483. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:32 pm Rate this comment: (13) (0) Controversial race endings, disputed champions, disputed champions before the champion is even determined, whiney entitled drivers, good hard racing for the win decried as breaking "the driver code", blatantly causing a huge wreck to stay alive in this ridiculously gimmicked chase praised as smart, grandstands at almost every race track being torn down, grandstands that were once packed to the brim, as fast as they can to avoid the embarrassment of tens of thousands of empty seats, and a final four consisting of there drivers with a combined 5 wins and a fourth with 4 wins over a 5 race stretch in early summer. Folks, this sport isn't even on life support. The plug has been pulled. Now it is just waiting for it to be officially confirmed as dead. Hard to believe this is the same sport that we were watching in the 90s. A complete joke. 484. Cornys posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) NASCAR is alive and well. It's declining, and that's not entirely NASCAR's fault, but mostly, it can be attributed to the sad state that the league is in. That is their fault. Demographics and society are to blame as well, but even BIG former fans aren't interested now. NASCAR had a young, lifelong fan in me, but I'm lost now. IndyCar has filled the void NASCAR left. No regrets for me, but I'm still angry at NASCAR. 485. 426hemi posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Congratulations to Jeff Gordon,Martin Truex, Kyle Busch,and harvick for making the final at Homestead. 486. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @483 Hi, DSFF!!!!! 487. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Controversial race endings, disputed champions, disputed champions before the champion is even determined, whiney entitled drivers, good hard racing for the win decried as breaking "the driver code", blatantly causing a huge wreck to stay alive in this ridiculously gimmicked chase praised as smart, grandstands at almost every race track being torn down, grandstands that were once packed to the brim, as fast as they can to avoid the embarrassment of tens of thousands of empty seats, and a final four consisting of there drivers with a combined 5 wins and a fourth with 4 wins over a 5 race stretch in early summer. Folks, this sport isn't even on life support. The plug has been pulled. Now it is just waiting for it to be officially confirmed as dead. Hard to believe this is the same sport that we were watching in the 90s. A complete joke. " More importantly, 4 drivers with a combined 2 wins in this "Winning is the only thing that counts" Chase format. Jeff Gordon and Martin Truex just completely trolled the system to perfection even worse than Newman did last year. At least Newman was a regular top-10 driver all season long last year; Jeff Gordon just coasted into the Chase running only as fast as necessary and then pulled out all the stops once September came. It is hilarious no matter how this ends for Jeff because he has trolled to perfection the farce that has kept him from being a 7-time champion. 488. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I believe DSFF has returned, His real first name is Jason, so unless it is a coincidence he is back (for now). 489. David posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:10 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Jeff Gordon just coasted into the Chase running only as fast as necessary and then pulled out all the stops once September came." But...but, Jeff Gordon always chokes in September and down the stretch. The book of DSFF says so. 490. murb posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:14 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "At least Newman was a regular top-10 driver all season long last year" And Truex hasn't been? 491. racefangurl posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (5) Go Truex! He's my favorite of the championship contenders. Gordon wouldn't be too bad either. Nobody in my house likes HarvICK or Cocky Kyle and besides, Harvick (whether he meant to or not) manipulated the Chase and Kyle missed races. 492. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""At least Newman was a regular top-10 driver all season long last year" And Truex hasn't been? " Ah, when folks pay no attention to context. Martin Truex, who actually won a race BEFORE the Chase, is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because of that win he had going into September. 493. murb posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:41 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) "Ah, when folks pay no attention to context." But you just said Gordon and Truex trolled the system harder than Newman did last year. I'll buy Gordon a little more on that I guess (but honestly, his 7.7 average finish in the Chase thus far would have put him in pretty good position even in the old Chase format), but Truex has been one of the best five or six drivers all year (hell, if you really want to break it down, I just realized that he has one more top ten and a handful more laps led than Jimmie Johnson does this year - if you give Truex hypothetical Spring Kansas and Spring Dover wins that he dominated but Jimmie ended up winning, Truex and Johnson's years look virtually identical, with Truex looking even slightly better), so in reality it's kind of crazy to say he trolled his way in worse than Newman. I'm not saying that this system isn't a joke, but I don't see anyway in hell that Gordon and Truex being in it this year is worse than Newman and Hamlin last year. If you look at full seasons, I think this is by far the best Final Four lineup we've had in the two years of this format thus far. 494. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 491- Once again, you're only saying that because Saint Trevor was the victim of Harvick's stunt. As a Harvick fan I don't agree with what he did but can we just get over it already? My #1 driver would probably be fighting for a championship if that didn't happen, yours would just have a better chance to maybe, just maybe, beat Danica Patrick in points this year. So if I can get over it, so can you. 495. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Truex has had a much better season this year than Newman did last year. 496. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Order of which I WANT the drivers to win the championship: 1. Harvick 2. Truex 3. Gordon 4. Busch Order of which I THINK the drivers will win the championship: 1. Harvick 2. Busch 3. Gordon 4. Truex 497. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:48 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) NASCAR sold it's soul for ratings at the sake of its credibility on January 30, 2014. That's all that needs to be said. 498. Schroeder51 posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "HarvICK" We have a new winner for the most clever, creative insulting nickname for a driver ever. I'll bet that SURELY took you weeks to come up with that one... 499. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 2:49 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @487 Truex is 5th in points in the non-Chase standings. Gordon maybe, but Truex has hardly trolled his way in. 500. Chris posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @453 Kyle Busch at Dover 2008. Won in the spring and 43rd in the fall. 501. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Outside of the restrictor plate races, Dale Jr. has led 31 laps this year. Of those 31, 22 came yesterday. 502. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:16 pm Rate this comment: (8) (1) DSFF is dead. DSFF was a huge NASCAR fan who loved it to the point of obsession. DSFF watched NASCAR all through the Brian France and chase era and saw what it has turned into. DSFF died of a broken heart. 503. racefangurl posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) 494, as a Joey fan, I have a guy that's been eliminated. Saint Trevor, that one's actually almost funny. He's a good guy, so even Bayneiac me must admit I've seen him called worse. 498, somebody on YA! called him HarvICK, so it's not something I can take credit for. 504. Anonymous posted: 11.16.2015 - 3:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1.32 rating translates to how many people? 505. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:07 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) 12 years ago today: NASCAR's final race without the Chase. NASCAR's final race with Winston. NASCAR's final race with Pontiac. 506. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) DSFF is dead. DSFF was a huge NASCAR fan who loved it to a point of obsession. DSFF watched NASCAR all through the Brian France and chase era. DSFF saw the sport devolve ino what you see presently. DSFF died of a broken heart. 507. The Long Shot posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:30 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "DSFF is dead. DSFF was a huge NASCAR fan who loved it to a point of obsession. DSFF watched NASCAR all through the Brian France and chase era. DSFF saw the sport devolve ino what you see presently. DSFF died of a broken heart." Good to see you, DSFF. If this is the big comeback Ben Lowe was alluding to, it's been rather underwhelming so far. 508. C posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @506 he wil be in my prayers tonight. 509. Jarrett88fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:39 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) I hope DSFF is back for a while but damn what a flying under the radar way to come back after the shitshow of the last month of Chase "racing." The sentimental person in me wants Gordon or Truex to win it at least a positive face as champion can barely prop up this dying sport. NASCAR needs major austerity measures for the future. Welcome back Jason. 510. Cornys posted: 11.16.2015 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @504 That depends. Wait on the final for that. Roughly, however, you'll be looking at 2,260,000 viewers. This is based on 3,300,000 viewers for Martinsville's regularly scheduled 1.9 overnight rating. It may be awhile before official numbers are released. Expect it around Thursday at the latest. If they are bad they typically take a lot longer to get. Funny how that works :D 511. WinstonCupStandings posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:16 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) 1) Kevin Harvick (5254) -Leader 2) Joey Logano (5108) -146 3) Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (4862) -392 -Out 4) Brad Keselowski (4799) -455 -Out 5) Martin Truex, Jr. (4637) -617 -Out 6) Jimmie Johnson (4624) -630 -Out 7) Denny Hamlin (4514) -740 -Out 8) Carl Edwards (4428) -826 -Out 9) Jeff Gordon (4419) -835 -Out 10) Kurt Busch (4352) -902 -Out 512. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) As the last few comments have said, welcome back DSFF/Jason. LOL @ C, you do know he didn't actually "die" right? 513. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) It was my fault you didn't see DSFF after the Talladega finish fiasco he really wanted to come on this comment board and vent his anger about that disaster but I prevented him from doing so and for that I apologize 514. WinstonCupStandings posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) 41st or better at Homestead, and Harvick wins championship two. 515. Captain51 posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @514, how can you possibly think that's true? It's a 4 way race. Whoever finishes higher wins the championship... 516. C posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) What I didn't lost that 517. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) 503- You actually take Yahoo seriously? (I assume thats what "YA!" means) That place is home to some of the absolute dumbest people on the planet, they make NASCAR on Fox's facebook page look like MENSA. 518. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) RIP DaleSrFanForever Faithful loyal alter ego to Jason Gilstrap 2008-2015. The Fan in Black. 519. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) @515 The name is WinstonCupStandings, so he tracks the Latford system points, not the Chase points. Something I wish NASCAR never got rid of. 520. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:18 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) @519 I think I may have said this at one point before on here, but I can't remember if I did, but all the change NASCAR really needed to make to the system as it was in 2003 was just give more points to the winner and have a bigger separation rather than just having the same 5 point spread that the top 10 positions had. Just go from the winner getting 175 points to having maybe 195-200 points and problem solved. 521. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @520 That's perfect. It would reward winning and consistency at the same time. The Chase rewards luck, survival, and little else. 522. Captain51 posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) My bad guys!! Was trying to figure out how that would make sense, but now it's clear. My bad! 523. KevinHarvickFanForever posted: 11.16.2015 - 6:25 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "RIP DaleSrFanForever" Is there where I come in to replace him...then win at Atlanta. Still welcome back Jason. 524. joey2448 posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:40 pm Rate this comment: (4) (2) "best driver of the year misses the final four." What are you talking about? Kevin Harvick is in at Homestead. 525. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 523- In a photo finish over JG24FanForever. 526. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's an interesting debate to say who is better this season. Logano has 6 wins to Harvick's 3, and Logano has 6 poles to Harvick's 1. They all have over 25 top 5's and 27 top 10's, but Logano only has a little over half of the laps led that Harvick has led. I would give to benefit to Harvick mainly because he's been red hot all season while Logano didn't start going on a tear until the second half. 527. Alex posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NBC Sports Group will present dual national coverage of the NASCAR Sprint Cup Championship finale from Homestead-Miami Speedway on Nov. 22. While NBC provides the primary broadcast of the race, NBCSN will offer a simultaneous live feed dedicated to each of the "Championship 4" drivers racing for the Sprint Cup crown. Live race coverage on both NBC and NBCSN begins at 3 p.m. ET. The "NBCSN Hot Pass" multi-window display provides viewers an in-depth look at Gordon, Kevin Harvick, Kyle Busch and Martin Truex Jr., with up to three different angles from in-car cameras. A dynamic track map keeps viewers aware of the Championship 4 driver positions and changes throughout the field, while a pane of race facts and figures will illustrates live point differentials and key shifts in the race. Leigh Diffey and former NASCAR driver Dale Jarrett will host NBCSN Hot Pass coverage. "Get ready to experience history in real time from the drivers' headset and perspective," said Dan Steir, SVP of Production for NBCSN. "NBCSN Hot Pass will deliver a constant spotlight on the Championship 4 drivers and allow the race fan to access the strategy and drama in a more focused manner." NBCSN Hot Pass also provides a simultaneous cycle of in-car audio, showcasing team communications between the driver, crew chief and spotter as each Championship 4 driver turns laps around the 1.5-mile track. Diffey and Jarrett will punctuate the in-car audio, explaining key situations and communications among the four teams. NBCSN Hot Pass and NBC's broadcast of the NASCAR Sprint Cup Championship race are both available for live stream via NBC Sports Live Extra." Write your own jokes. This is loaded. 528. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:49 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) And while I was never around on the comment boards at the time, I've always had a lot of respect for DSFF/Jason for his tremendous knowledge and passion for the sport, even though I didn't always agree with him. Welcome back. 529. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 8:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @504 I'm not entirely sure but I believe a 1.32 is about 1.5 million. 530. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (6) (9) @523 well played I'll post more on the Homestead page. Didn't watch any NASCAR this year, until I heard about a "controversial" finish to the Kansas race. I pulled it up on YouTube and thought "um, where is the controversy?". Matt blocked Joey high twice, then tried to cut him off going into Turn 1 and spun out. Then Matt whined and whined and whined and whined and whined and whined. He got what he deserved. Then I was dumb enough to watch the end of that abortion of a race at Dega, then watch NASCAR do absolutely nothing to Harvick. Then Matt pulled an ultimate chicken shit move. And of course all the other whiney entitled drivers applauded Matt. Led by Gordon, this is the generation of drivers that will always be remembered as the group that drove fans away from NASCAR in droves. Massive sections of grandstands torn down every year, massive sponsor tarps to cover other entire sections of empty seats. A defending (and possibly soon to be two time defending) champ whose sponsor is scaling way back, etc, etc. 531. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) just keep matriculating your rant down the field Jason 532. DB1995 posted: 11.16.2015 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Brad is 3rd in laps led, 3rd in top 10's, but only tied for 8th in top 5's and only has 1 win back in March where he led 1lap. What a strange season for him. 533. Sean posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) No real problem with the ending. Rain happens. I do think they were seriously trying to restart until drivers felt the conditions were too dangerous, and I don't think they wanted a replay of the 2001 all-star race (who knows anymore though? They might want a replay of something like the 2011 IndyCar Loudon race if it'll inspire somebody to rip off Will Power's double-bird to protest the officials). I'm okay with that. Yeah, Junior's win was cheesy, but I've seen worse, and at least he was in the top three all race. He didn't DO anything to win, no, but lots of races are won that way. I think the race I was appalled by most in that vein was the 2000 Southern 500, when B. Labonte hadn't led any part of the race, beat everybody out of the pits and then it rained a lap later and he won. Junior was faster in this race than Bobby was in that one, if I recall right. My only problem with the Talladega ending honestly is what Harvick did and that they claimed the race hadn't restarted when Johnson spun before the start-finish line (although there are a few precedents for that, they're mostly in IndyCar racing...NASCAR doesn't wave off restarts like IndyCar does much...) "So, Kurt Busch DIDN'T lead the first couple of laps?" Yeah, that puzzled me too. USAC and CART gave Scott Goodyear credit for leading until lap 195 at the 1995 Indy 500 when they stopped scoring him even though he jumped the restart on lap 189. Never heard of any precedent like that before. "And this format is about winning, right? Johnson and Kenseth have more wins than the final four has combined and they aren't even going to finish in the top 10 in points." No NASCAR points format will properly weight top finishes. They just don't believe in it and never have and I don't really get it. Only the 1974 points system even came close to accomplishing that, and that was badly flawed as well. People who like the Latford points system REALLY don't see how bad it was. It is so consistency-driven that Jimmy Means beat Dale Earnhardt in points once. Could there possibly be a worse indictment of the so-called 'classic' points system than that? We needed a change, just not the one we got. "Jeff Gordon and Martin Truex just completely trolled the system to perfection even worse than Newman did last year. At least Newman was a regular top-10 driver all season long last year" Agree with everybody else. Truex was much stronger than Newman, much to my surprise (never expected Truex to ever pull off a year like this). First off, they're in at least the same equipment (if Furniture Row is an RCR satellite, theoretically the RCR cars should be doing better, yet the single-car team independent is). Truex is if I am not mistaken the first single-car team driver to finish in the top five in points since Dale Earnhardt in 1996. That's freaking huge and pretty underreported, although it is largely a sign of NASCAR's decline as well since most of the powerhouse teams are not as powerful as they were (Roush and Childress are basically done and Hendrick is done when Johnson and Harvick retire, leaving only Gibbs and Penske as legitimate threats like 5 years from now). Truex won a race, led the most laps in four straight races, and scored 23 top tens with one race left (Newman only had 16). Truex had more wins, more top fives, more top tens, and was much more dominant (Newman had the WORST average percent led of any driver to finish 2nd in the points, even worse than James Hylton's three 2nd place seasons and he was an underfunded independent, not driving for an ostensible powerhouse, but clearly Earnhardt and Harvick were both making RCR look much better than it was). Since Truex is doing essentially what he's doing in the same equipment, it's kind of asinine to say Truex is doing worse. As undeserving as I think he would be career-wise, I hope he wins. I mean I thought Logano was the deserving champion to begin with and he's out, so much rather see Truex than Harvick after that Talladega nightmare. Kyle is as smooth as I have ever seen and I think he has really cleaned up his act after breaking his leg, like it was a come-to-Jesus moment or something, and I wouldn't mind seeing him win the title as a result, partial season or not (it's less of a fiasco than what the full-season championship contenders have already been doing in the chase to me...) As for Gordon, he so does not deserve it but if he got it, at least it would make up for the farce he lost in 1996 (I don't think he was the best in '04, '07, or '14...I'd give it to Johnson, Johnson, and a split decision between Harvick/Logano/Keselowski, respectively). So I guess I'm totally ABH. Unfortunately, I think Harvick has a 60%-70% chance of winning. "NASCAR sold it's soul for ratings at the sake of its credibility on January 30, 2014. That's all that needs to be said." Much earlier than that. I would say 2004. I might even argue 1998. Playoffs in the first place (in any sport) are trading off the probability of rewarding the best team for increased popularity/attention/ratings. I will begrudgingly accept them in the mainstream sports that already had them because it is a tradition, although I think even the mainstream sports (which NASCAR no longer is imo now that over half the races are on FS1/NBC Sports, which is a lagging indicator of NASCAR's decline...it always takes forever for TV deals to adverse shocks...CART didn't end up mostly on SPEED Channel until like 2002, long after the split) would be more pure without playoff systems and simply giving the championship to the team with the best record, or having the best record in each conference play each other or something. Think of the other relatively recent playoff systems, such as the BCS, the FedEx Cup, and NHRA's Countdown (the Chase ripoff which the Nu-Chase is currently ripping off)? Were any of these well-received? I actually like the ideas of the Nu-Chase better than the ideas of the previous one, since it is actually a playoff (if you're going to do a playoff you need eliminations, period) but the problem with ANY such points system is that consistency is tremendously overvalued, and admittedly, that does become more and more of a problem the fewer races you have in each round (think of outliers like Mike Skinner and Joe Ruttman leading the points early in seasons despite being career-winless...) I certainly don't want a chase at all, but if you're going to do it, maybe do it over the entire second half of the season just to have longer rounds? I'm in the camp that thinks ALL playoffs are stupid ratings grabs though, including the NFL/MLB ones which everybody raves about. I don't know a lot about baseball, but I loved Billy Beane's ideas about playoffs in the book version of "Moneyball" where he said his goal was only to get into the playoffs because once there, they're a complete crapshoot, and that's pretty much how I feel about all playoffs. Honestly, the Chase led me to hate everybody else's playoffs too. 534. Sean posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "All the change NASCAR really needed to make to the system as it was in 2003 was just give more points to the winner and have a bigger separation rather than just having the same 5 point spread that the top 10 positions had. Just go from the winner getting 175 points to having maybe 195-200 points and problem solved." That creates very similar incentives to what we now have. Few drivers are going to try for risks to go for wins when the gaps between 2nd-3rd are the same/barely more than the gaps between 42nd-43rd. I think mid-pack finishes getting way more points than DNFs is actually worse than the top positions receiving not enough points, although I would personally make both corrections. No, we've already given the winner more points in a race, while actually giving 2nd-10th LESS relative to the midpack ratio-wise (due to this stupid 43-1 points system which was designed because NASCAR thinks its fans are apparently too stupid to understand more complicated). I think I'd rather see only the top 20 or top 25 scoring points 20-1 or 25-1 than giving ONLY the winner more points. Of course, the top positions should get more points, but the bigger problem is that the middle positions get too much. "It's an interesting debate to say who is better this season. Logano has 6 wins to Harvick's 3, and Logano has 6 poles to Harvick's 1. They all have over 25 top 5's and 27 top 10's, but Logano only has a little over half of the laps led that Harvick has led. I would give to benefit to Harvick mainly because he's been red hot all season while Logano didn't start going on a tear until the second half." I'd take Joey's season because he is the first driver to win on all four track types (restrictor plate, unrestricted superspeedway, short track, and road course) in a single season since Jeff Gordon in 1999. Indeed, only Mark Martin in '95 and Gordon in '97-'99 have even done this since the restrictor plate era began in 1988. That's pretty big. "Led by Gordon, this is the generation of drivers that will always be remembered as the group that drove fans away from NASCAR in droves." Afraid I must disagree with you and I am indifferent to Gordon. Gordon brought a real fan base but it was rather fairweather. The traditionalist fans and yuppie fans were both alienated by NASCAR's recent direction. Has any driver since 2000 (Junior) developed a real fanbase (i.e. the drivers who peaked when the rapid decline was beginning?) I'm a lot less sure about that. I think Gordon himself was fine until the idea of a 'model driver' became a Gordon clone leading to a bunch of USAC drivers who lacked NASCAR talent and modern media-friendly personalities in the Gordon mold getting way too many chances. Don't blame him for his clones. One good thing about this race: fewest cautions in over 3 years since Sonoma 2012. Would that NASCAR officiated every race this way... 535. Anonymous posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:09 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) DSFFF remember this? "I like Matt a lot. He is a very good driver, a champion, and I like his quiet demeanor. He does his job, doesn't whine very often, doesn't bash others, praises his crew, and is in the hunt every year." 536. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (3) I was wrong about a lot of drivers, especially Brad. In these last few years, I kept trying to convince myself there were some cool guys in the field. Luckily I got a wake up call in October 2013. 537. Sean posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:36 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Right, they've just mostly become prima donnas with a few exceptions (McMurray, Truex, and I happen to think Kyle and Joey are maturing, even though most disagree...at least I believe they have genuine personalities even though I don't like some things they do) who grew up with NASCAR on top of American motorsports so they believed they were hot shit. I can't believe Kenseth fooled people so long considering he made his name by knocking Tony Stewart out of the way in a Busch race at Rockingham, and he was considered Mark Martin's protege. Well, Martin wasn't so clean himself really (I recall him dumping Dick Trickle and Chuck Bown at Bristol for no reason, especially sad when Bown won the pole that day). It does cause me to have more respect for people like Earnhardt, and even people like Kyle Busch. They all dump people, but guys like Martin, Jarrett, Kenseth pretend to be family men and hope people can see through the facade. Gordon tried to pretend to be clean, but nobody bought it because he was under so much scrutiny, but everybody bought Martin/Jarrett/Kenseth's clean images because they weren't noticed as much. The baby-boomer NASCAR drivers remember when NASCAR was considered second-fiddle to IndyCar so they focused on being considerate to the fans while the IndyCar drivers of the period just leading up to the split for the most part (Michael Andretti, Al Unser, Jr., Robby Gordon, Paul Tracy, Jacques Villeneuve, Eddie Cheever) were egotistical windbags. Yes, Paul Tracy was a FUN egotistical windbag sometimes (for the same reason I think Kyle Busch is fun sometimes). NASCAR had a ready-made collection of grassroots drivers to capture the American racing population, and they did. The IndyCar drivers were forced to learn to accept the few fans they still had (ditto for sports car racing, drag racing, most other less popular forms in the US) so the drivers there seem human, while the current NASCAR drivers are in a glass tower because they believe they're the center of the universe, like the IndyCar drivers did 20 years ago. That doesn't mean NASCAR will split (nobody else owns enough ovals to do it) and it doesn't mean IndyCar will surpass NASCAR in popularity. But there's a reason that IndyCar and sports car racing have had most of the more enjoyable recent American racing talents. 538. Nathan8848 posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:37 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Why do Kyle Busch fans hate Jr and his fans so much? Just curious? It doesn't make sense. Other then that very small incident at Richmond in 08-09 there has never been bad blood between them. 539. Sean posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And how could I forget Scott "I Almost Won Indy 3 Times So That Makes Me a Legend" on my egotistical windbag list? He might be #1 since at least Andretti, Unser, and Villeneuve could back up their talk back then (although Unser and Villeneuve became complete jokes not much later), and Robby never really committed to anything long enough or seriously enough for me to call him objectively a failure (he seemed to be more into just screwing around and having fun than ultimately serious about developing his talent). Cheever is similar to Goodyear, but at least he got the Indy 500 win that eluded Goodyear (even though Stewart, Brack, Luyendyk, Sharp, and Lazier were pretty much the only other drivers of any note in that race, and three of them DNFed while Brack ran out of gas), and at least his Formula One career wasn't that bad (certainly better than Scott Speed's, and better than Danny Sullivan's, Michael Andretti's, Alex Zanardi's, and Cristiano da Matta's, and they were great here.) 540. Sean posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Why do Kyle Busch fans hate Jr and his fans so much? Just curious? It doesn't make sense. Other then that very small incident at Richmond in 08-09 there has never been bad blood between them." Probably bitterness over the Hendrick/Gibbs driver swap. Kyle has clearly proven himself to be the superior driver yet his fans feel he got essentially thrown away for an inferior yet more marketable driver... I suspect that Kenseth replacing Logano at Gibbs added fuel to that fire as well. 541. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I remember Kyle said this to some extent in one of his interviews: "I don't hate Jr., it's his fans that are crazy." Busch fans feel that they got thrown out by a worse driver like Sean said, and Jr. fans don't like Busch for Richmond, and the fact that Busch went on to a much better career after the swap. It's no different than Gordon fans hating Keselowski for Texas, Kenseth fans hating Logano and vice versa and more. 542. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 10:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Really, a lot of Busch fans don't hate Junior. Its just the ones that are the loudest. Same reason why "Jr Nation" gets a bum rap, just because there's the most of us than any other driver and there certainly are some idiots out there, people lump all Jr fans together. I used to hate Kyle but it never had anything to do with Richmond '08, that was just a racing incident. Sure I was disappointed, but I got over it pretty quickly especially when Jr repaid the favor in the fall race (and I was there). My hatred for Kyle reached its peak in 2011 when he acted like an immature spoiled brat the entire season and eventually got himself suspended, but he has matured some since then. I don't think I'll ever like him but I certainly don't hate him anywhere near as much as I used to. Oh yeah and the Buschwhacking doesn't help his case either. 543. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "McMurray, Truex" Notice how those two, while good, don't have as much success as the others? I think their personality has to do with that. And other guys like Ragan and the backmarkers probably have more credibility than anyone who runs up front. I've always liked McMurray (and Truex to a lesser extent) for the fact that he doesn't seem entitled to himself and he actually a genuine personality. But the adage "Nice guys finish last" could not be more true. 544. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:07 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Funny thing is Dale Jr and Kyle Busch are my two favorite drivers so I really don't understand the beef both fan bases 545. David posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) All this goes to show one thing: If you want things in NASCAR to change, go start your own stop motion or NR2003 series and post the races on YouTube. But seriously though, those are entertaining to watch. 546. 88&4Fan posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So Jason/DSFF, just curious has your opinion on Dale Jr or Kevin Harvick changed at all the past few years, as far as their driving ability? I mean I can't help but notice that both of their pages are littered with comments from you about how they "can't get it done" and the sort, and obviously I am somewhat biased since they are my two favorites but you'd have to be crazy to not say that they have both done great the last few years. 547. MAR posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just To give u guys a heads up I live about a hour and a half north of Homestead and the weather has been horrible the past 3 days cloudy rainy all day and night im not sure if its going to clear up for the weekend so be prepared for rain delays. 548. murb posted: 11.16.2015 - 11:25 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) "I was wrong about a lot of drivers" It's funny how opinions can change. There's quite a few drivers who I used to downright hate (Logano, both Busch brothers, Johnson) that I'm now totally indifferent towards, and then there's guys who I used to consider myself a fan of when I was a little kid that I TOTALLY can't stand now (Harvick is probably the most glaring example for me here, as I was a pretty big fan of his from 2001 to about early 2011 - basically right up until that dumbass feud he had with Kyle that lasted like three months, which was then subsequently followed by him quitting on his crew chief Gil Martin and getting him replaced for 2012, only to change his mind later on in 2012 after he ran bad with Shane Wilson - and then of course all the recent crap he's pulled, like interjecting himself with Brad/Gordon at Texas last year and then Talladega this year). Not counting a lot of the up and comers that I like (Bubba, Blaney, and honestly, I've been starting to like Suarez more and more as I watch him), the only guys left in Cup that I can say I actually truly like are probably Truex, McMurray, Almirola, Allmendinger (though he does kind of whine sometimes when something happens to him), Cassill, and maybe Mears. 549. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I wish I could give comment 548 multiple thumbs up. And to think, this is now the end of my ninth year as a die-hard fan of NASCAR, ever since I was just an 8 year old kid playing in my basement while my dad had the 2007 Daytona 500 on TV. There are soooo many drivers who I have changed my opinion on dramatically since then. Here are just a few of the biggest examples: Jimmie Johnson - I liked him at first because my dad liked him (my opinion on almost every driver in the beginning was based on what my dad thought), then I hated him because he won too much, but I've now come to appreciate his greatness. Jeff Gordon - Used to be my dad's most hated driver so I hated him in the beginning too until much like Johnson I came to appreciate his greatness and his impact on the sport. However I'm still not sure if I can ever completely forgive him for the 2012 Phoenix race. Which brings me to... Clint Bowyer - I liked him A LOT when he was with RCR. He was a genuine, classy driver who never got into any controversies. And then Spingate happened and the rest is history. Brad Keselowski - Liked him in the Nationwide series with JRM, then hated him during the Edwards incident because I liked Carl and didn't know any better (now I realize that it was Edwards' fault), then liked him again because he said "Kyle Busch is an ass!", and then lost respect for him again after the 2014 chase (especially Charlotte). He's been gaining some respect back for me though lately since he hasn't caused any major controversies in a while. Kurt Busch - In the beginning, it was guilt by association to Kyle because once again I was young and didn't know any better, but I found good reason to hate him after everything he did in 2011 (funny, both of the Busch brothers had their worst year maturity wise in 2011). But since 2012 I've been slowly gaining respect back for him and how he handled everything last offseason I think is enough for me to consider myself a fan of his. Ty Dillon - I used to like him because he was Austin's brother, until I realized what a self entitled punk he is. The incident at Martinsville with Harvick sealed the deal on what I think of him. And finally, Joey Logano - Believe it or not, I actually used to like this guy. That all changed around 2012 when he won something like 10 Cup Lite races (including a heartbreaking loss for Ryan Truex in Dover, his home track, in the final laps, a race where Joey punted a lapped car into the inside wall for no reason) and then of course there was the incident that secured his place on my "most hated" list for years to come, when he put Hamlin in the hospital and said "thats what he gets". And while I won't deny his amazing talent and potential to win multiple championships in the future, he is currently my least favorite driver and it will likely remain that way for quite some time. I won't even get into everything that's happened during the chase this year. 550. racefangurl posted: 11.17.2015 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (5) 517, I've only taken selective things at Yahoo! seriously. The source of that HarvICK thing seemed to not be a troll. Her name is Lauren and she said she was a Denny Hamlin and liked some other drivers, but had a few she disliked. 551. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 12:54 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just like 548 and 549, I'm the exact same way. Ever since I've started watching since the 2009 Southern 500 when I was 9, my opinions on drivers have drastically changed. Johnson- For a long time, he was my least favorite because I was so tired of him dominating every single week, mainly because I didn't know any better. But as I've gotten older, I've definetly come to appreciate him more. Harvick- When I first started watching, I picked him to be my favorite. I liked his driving style and thought he was underrated. Although he's no longer my favorite after some of the stunts he's pulled, I still like him and I find him fun to watch, Ky. Busch- After the meltdown known as 2011, I never really liked him. Bust since then I think he's learned from his mistakes and I've gradually been liking him more every week. Ku. Busch- See Kyle. After 2011, he realized he needed to change what he was doing. I thought he handled the divorce situation well as well. Bowyer- I used to respect him a lot. He was always clean and classy at RCR and he never got in the way. Obviously that would change at Richmond.. Keselowski- I liked him at first, but then he lost all credibility after Charlotte. I think he's learned his lesson though. Gordon- Didn't think highly of him much at the time, but he's grown into my all time favorite, mainly for his legendary career. Phoenix was definetly a black eye but I will always be a 24 fan. Ragan- He was one of my favorites at first especially for his demeanor, and I vividly remember pulling for the 6 car all the time. But since then I've realized he isn't that good of a driver so I don't like him as much as I used to. McMurray- Despite my name, I never thought highly of him at first. But after the 2010 Daytona 500, I instantly became a fan. 2011 and 2012 was a struggle, but it's great to see him running great once again. 552. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:50 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) I don't apologize being an Jr. fan and celebrating this win. He has had some hard luck over the years and he didn't complain about the outcome at Talladega when he really should have, but he didn't and took it in stride. Like it or not it's why he wins most popular driver award and it's not just because he is Dale Sr.'s son. He wins because he has a good personality and is honest about everything and hardly whines or complains. Jr. Nation needed a W. It's not like he totally lucked into it. It wasn't like he had a 15th place car, he ran in the top 3 for most of the race so good for him. Being a fan I enjoyed the win. He needed a pick me up. 553. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 2:28 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "I'm betting on all 3 car makes to somehow get in. Logano, Gordon, Harvick, and Ky. Busch. Gordon winning the title at Homestead. Although I don't like Gordon, never have and never will, I believe he will complete the drive for 5. Finally." 866. comment from Talladega race that I predicted. I got 3 out of 4, but I am still predicting Gordon to win. The Chase is a complete joke, I swear it can't be said enough. Although the 78 car has been a great story (only fabricated by Chase), they don't deserve the championship, the 24 doesn't deserve it (although he did in '04 and '07 so it wouldn't be a big problem if he won), the 18 missed a 1/3 of the season, and the 4 car wrecked Bayne at 'dega for his own gain (which isn't entirely his fault because of that type of stunt is a product of the Chase). Harvick has 3 wins and 12 2nd's, honestly he deserves it more than any of the final four regardless of his 'dega shenanigans. Whoever does the WinstonCupPointStandings please continue to do it. It's awesome. I'm also tired of hearing how if Truex wins it will be like Alan Kulwicki's title in 1992. NO, NO, NO!!! Not even close to that... 554. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 2:33 am Rate this comment: (4) (0) @530 DSFF/JG I really don't see why he has negatives on this post. I totally agree with him about Logano/Kenseth wreck at Kansas and have stated previously. Kenseth opened himself up to getting wrecked. He blocked twice and ran him up in wall, so he had it coming. That's all there is to it. I really don't like either of them. However, Logano acted really smug after the race and although what Kenseth did at Martinsville was dirty, I didn't have a big problem with that either. Many drivers and even fans said that Logano had that coming from previous actions other than just the Kansas incident if you consider that an "action". 555. Sector posted: 11.17.2015 - 4:35 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, when you mentioned how Kenseth/Jarrett/Martin fooled people because of how clean they tried to be, I wanted your insight on this guy: Jimmie Johnson. Were there any moments besides the Jeff Gordon feud in 2010 or the semi-rivalry with Kurt Busch in 2011? 556. Alex posted: 11.17.2015 - 6:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Well MAR lives somewhere between Miami and Fort Lauderdale! 557. RaceFanX posted: 11.17.2015 - 8:24 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "NBCSN Hot Pass also provides a simultaneous cycle of in-car audio, showcasing team communications between the driver, crew chief and spotter as each Championship 4 driver turns laps around the 1.5-mile track. Diffey and Jarrett will punctuate the in-car audio, explaining key situations and communications among the four teams." Didn't ESPN do something like this for a CART race back in like 1994 during the earlier "The Deuce" days of espn2. Main broadcast on the mothership, full-time in-car cameras angles on the secondary channel? 558. Cornys posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:42 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The baby-boomer NASCAR drivers remember when NASCAR was considered second-fiddle to IndyCar so they focused on being considerate to the fans while the IndyCar drivers of the period just leading up to the split for the most part (Michael Andretti, Al Unser, Jr., Robby Gordon, Paul Tracy, Jacques Villeneuve, Eddie Cheever) were egotistical windbags. Yes, Paul Tracy was a FUN egotistical windbag sometimes (for the same reason I think Kyle Busch is fun sometimes). NASCAR had a ready-made collection of grassroots drivers to capture the American racing population, and they did. The IndyCar drivers were forced to learn to accept the few fans they still had (ditto for sports car racing, drag racing, most other less popular forms in the US) so the drivers there seem human, while the current NASCAR drivers are in a glass tower because they believe they're the center of the universe, like the IndyCar drivers did 20 years ago. That doesn't mean NASCAR will split (nobody else owns enough ovals to do it) and it doesn't mean IndyCar will surpass NASCAR in popularity. But there's a reason that IndyCar and sports car racing have had most of the more enjoyable recent American racing talents." I think a lot can be said about this. Great post Sean :) It's almost like racing series can rise until they become too popular, then they begin to fall over their weight. IndyCar just hit bottom in 2011 IMO. 559. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.17.2015 - 12:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @534 Agree Sean, but I was trying to be a bit more realistic. Obviously NASCAR would never implement a system that properly weighed finishes throughout the whole field, but I think that the idea I gave would have been a decent compromise. But alas, Brian France did what he did, and now we are where we are. I don't know if you keep up with it any, but if you do I would love to know what your thoughts on today's men's tennis game are. Random I know, but I really wonder if there's anyone else on here that likes tennis( and dislike what it has become today, although not on the level of racing certainly). 560. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.17.2015 - 12:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Jason, have you been to Bowman Gray any the last couple of years? 561. Eric posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:29 pm Rate this comment: (3) (0) I mentioned it before that Joey doesn't have a lot of respect in the cup garage even before the Kenseth incident. One of the reasons is due to Logano doesn't talk to other drivers when an incident happens on the track. That means Joey doesn't talk to the other driver after the race or sometime during the week. Part of that is caused by his dad, Tom in terms of not able to talk to Joey. The 2nd reason drivers don't respect Joey is the fact his dad is doing Joey's Battles. Joey's dad shoved media people in the garage era in the pastand doing other stuff like making death signals to other drivers that Joey got an incident on the track with. Take a look at Martinsville for an example. The crew chief of Joey's chief had to stop Joey's dad from starting to go after someone despite Joey is now 25 years old and married. 562. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I haven't been to Bowman Gray in about 3 years. I guess my taste for racing has been completely extinguished. I haven't even been to Caraway which puts on much better racing. As for my opinion of Harvick, it hasn't changed. That 4 car has been by far the fastest car week in and week out the last two years. Doesn't 8 wins over that stretch seem pretty disappointing? Despite his aggressive personality front he puts on, he is just the next Terry Labonte. Not a horrible thing, but he has proved to be pretty forgettable. Here Kevin is with a rare chance to follow up his first title with another title, yet nobody is paying any attention. I know I'll be paying way more attention Sunday to watching my Panthers try to go 10-0! Love it, love it, love it. And looking forward to football's playoffs to see Peyton Manning go one and done for the 10th time. 563. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @562 Last year there was really good racing at the Madhouse, but this year they went to a harder tire compound and there was nowhere near as much action. 2014 was great, 2015 was average. Good to have you back Jason. 564. Tylor Thaber posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @562 Caraway has better racing than Bowman Gray? You sure?...Well, I haven't been to either so I'll trust you on that. 565. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.17.2015 - 1:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @562 To that point Dale Jr. has led less than 700 laps in the last two years( not even 25% of the laps Kevin has led) yet still has 7 wins(only one less) over that stretch. By the same token, Joey Logano has led a little over 2,000 laps in 2014 and 2015, barely more than half that the 4 car has led, yet has 11 wins( three more than Harvick). Jimmie Johnson is on pace to have his least laps led since 2005 with only 558 this year(again, barely 25% of the laps Harvick has led this year) yet has two more wins. Kevin definitely hasn't been a closer in the last two years looking at those numbers. Which is so ironic after the way it was in the RCR years. 566. Spen posted: 11.17.2015 - 2:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Assuming that the winner at Homestead drives for either HMS, SHR, JGR, PRS or FRR, this season will tie 1974 for the fewest number of race winning organizations. 567. JHN#8 posted: 11.17.2015 - 2:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @487 Newman had 10 top 10s going into the Chase last year. Truex had 17 going into the Chase this year. So yea, you are right. Newman was SOOO much better... 568. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 2:44 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Its official... Koba the cheetah says that Kevin Harvick will win his second consecutive NASCAR Super Bowl World Series Final Four Game 7! 569. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.17.2015 - 3:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) You don't hear much about Caraway cause it is truly out in the middle of nowhere. 570. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.17.2015 - 3:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since Earnhardt won the race this weekend without leading a green flag lap, it made me wonder when the last time a driver won a race without leading a lap under green flag conditions? 571. Cornys posted: 11.17.2015 - 3:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Koba the cheetah picked the cheetah. That's a nice touch. 572. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 4:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Maybe David Reutimann in the 2009 Coke 600? 573. Ak47 posted: 11.17.2015 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) When it comes to crowning a champion, open-wheel series have always been far ahead of NASCAR. They actually understand that top finishes mean a lot more than 15th-20th place consistency (or 10th every week in the smaller indycar fields). An exciting, and true, method of crowning a champion could look something like this 1st-100, 2-5 80-70-60-50, 6-10 45-40-35-30-25, and then decrease by 2 points until 15th (15 pts), then decrease by 1. That way, 29th and every driver after would score only 1 point (or 0). In this way, every driver would have no choice but to go all-out every week. The season would never grow stale, because if the driver in 1st has a down week, everyone else could capitalize and make up a ton of points. 574. Ak47 posted: 11.17.2015 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) The chase wouldn't be necessary. And by what logic should the difference between 2nd and 7th be the same as 35th to 40th...we all know what positions matter more 575. Sean posted: 11.17.2015 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (7) (0) "Although the 78 car has been a great story (only fabricated by Chase), they don't deserve the championship" Agree, but I suspect we will see much worse seasons in the Final Four in most years (like Gordon's this year and Newman's last year). He's had a 5th-8th place season and is in the final four. That doesn't bother me so much...even Clint Bowyer's RCR points finishes bother me more than Truex this year. "I'm also tired of hearing how if Truex wins it will be like Alan Kulwicki's title in 1992. NO, NO, NO!!! Not even close to that..." Much closer than Tony Stewart's 2011 which was also hyped as an owner-driver championship (even though Stewart was essentially just a Hendrick franchise owner). Truex also had a much better pre-chase than Stewart did that year. "Sean, when you mentioned how Kenseth/Jarrett/Martin fooled people because of how clean they tried to be, I wanted your insight on this guy: Jimmie Johnson. Were there any moments besides the Jeff Gordon feud in 2010 or the semi-rivalry with Kurt Busch in 2011?" He caused a ton of restrictor plate crashes in 2004-05 and refused to take the blame for them, which is when I think most fans started turning against him. I actually think he is on the cleaner side (his crew chief, not so much) but I don't really think anyone is "clean" except maybe McMurray and Truex and some of the backmarkers. "It's almost like racing series can rise until they become too popular, then they begin to fall over their weight. IndyCar just hit bottom in 2011 IMO." The officiating was an atrocity in 2011, but I really don't think it has gotten much better since. 2011 was a very fun season though and in my opinion the beginning of the comeback for IndyCar. There was a sudden increase in competitive depth that year with lots of drivers outside Penske/Ganassi/Andretti fighting for race wins, with Wheldon winning Indy in a one-off for the Bryan Herta team, Carpenter winning with his self-owned team, Tagliani winning the pole for Schmidt, Hildebrand nearly stealing the 500 for Panther, the Newman-Haas emergence with Servia reaching the top five in points (and really winning that race in Loudon, no matter what anybody said). Loads of officiating controversies to be sure and everything about Las Vegas disgusted me (Randy Bernard proved there beyond a shadow of a doubt, as if he hadn't already proved this at that awful Texas doubleheader that he cared more about the show than racing integrity or safety...brilliant promoter but he had no business being President of the Series. Jay Frye should make a good one though. I think Bernard was actually worse than Tony George in terms of actually running a series, even though the fans bizarrely liked him.) Post-merger IndyCar bottomed out I would say in 2009 (the year Penske/Ganassi won all but one race and they only had 4 cars and 1 part-time car that year between them). I watched that season at the time and don't really remember anything except Castroneves winning a very boring Indy, Wilson's win in the Dale Coyne car, and Ryan Briscoe throwing the title away crashing in the pits at Motegi. Oh, and Ed Carpenter losing to Ryan Briscoe in that duel at Kentucky (which shocked me, considering until that point, I completely viewed Carpenter as a hack). 2011-15 have all been good, and the last five Indys in particular have all been great. I just wish the officiating was better. BluesTravelerFan, sorry, I don't follow tennis. "As for my opinion of Harvick, it hasn't changed. That 4 car has been by far the fastest car week in and week out the last two years. Doesn't 8 wins over that stretch seem pretty disappointing? Despite his aggressive personality front he puts on, he is just the next Terry Labonte. Not a horrible thing, but he has proved to be pretty forgettable." I hate Harvick, but I am a little confused. Years ago you used to be hard on Harvick for not being relevant in the races and getting more wins than he should (I agree). Now you're hard on him for being relevant in the races like he never has been before and getting fewer wins than he should. Which is it? Is it only impressive if a driver gets precisely the number of wins they should compared to the level of their dominance? Terry Labonte never dominated like this (despite having cars Jeff Gordon could win 10 races in a season with) and Harvick is clearly superior. I'd put Harvick in the Bill Elliott/Mark Martin second-tier legend class, and I freaking can't stand him. Today's Terry Labonte equivalent? I'd actually say Kurt Busch (certainly not in demeanor or driving style or anything, but the nature of their seasons given the level of their equipment). "@562 To that point Dale Jr. has led less than 700 laps in the last two years( not even 25% of the laps Kevin has led) yet still has 7 wins(only one less) over that stretch. By the same token, Joey Logano has led a little over 2,000 laps in 2014 and 2015, barely more than half that the 4 car has led, yet has 11 wins( three more than Harvick). Jimmie Johnson is on pace to have his least laps led since 2005 with only 558 this year(again, barely 25% of the laps Harvick has led this year) yet has two more wins. Kevin definitely hasn't been a closer in the last two years looking at those numbers. Which is so ironic after the way it was in the RCR years." I just did a column on Racermetrics comparing each driver's number of wins based on the number of wins they SHOULD have for the entire history of F1, NASCAR Cup (not including this race), and IndyCar (and I went back even into the AAA years for IndyCar), using cumulative races led, which is simply each driver's sum of career percent led for all races in their career divided by 100 and can also be viewed as expected wins (i.e. a driver who leads 10% of 10 straight races will have a cumulative races led of 100% or 1 and should be expected to have one race win in that period). The best closers would be the drivers with the highest ratio of wins to cumulative races led. The top five active closers are (with 10+ wins): Carl Edwards (25 wins/17.05 crl) = 1.4656 Jimmie Johnson (75 wins/56.78 crl) = 1.3208 Brad Keselowski (17 wins/13.75 crl) = 1.2361 Jeff Gordon (93 wins/82.57 crl) = 1.1264 Kasey Kahne (17 wins/15.16 crl) = 1.1216 The bottom five active chokers are (with 10+ wins): Dale Earnhardt, Jr. (25 wins/28.66 crl) = 0.8723 (I did this earlier on Sunday before this race, so he did cut quite a bit of that deficit in this race) Kyle Busch (33 wins/36.15 crl) = 0.9128 Kurt Busch (27 wins/29.48 crl) = 0.9158 Greg Biffle (19 wins/19.93 crl) = 0.9534 Actually, those were the only four below 1 (I expected there would be more, and there definitely were in earlier eras. So yeah, Kyle is relatively bad in this regard for now, but Junior is overlooked here. And Buddy Baker was BY FAR the worst (19 wins vs. 34.66 cumulative races led for a ratio of 0.5481). Harvick is still above 1 (31 wins to 28.28 crl) but took yet another hit with this race, which was not counted. Not even counting this race, Harvick had 13.74 cumulative races led at Stewart-Haas to 8 wins, so that indeed is not good. That means before that he had 23 wins to 14.54 crl, which would have put him easily at #1 on the list. He WAS the best closer while at Childress, but now he is the worst choker. But I don't know how much I believe in closing and choking myself anyway. I think most of it comes down to luck. I'm really not *that* much a believer in clutch as I think luck factors are more important than anything else especially in this crapshoot era of NASCAR, but at least I've come up with a way to finally *calculate* choking/closing so people can debate these figures, regardless of whether I think choking and closing is REALLY a thing or not (I think it is way overrated by most fans). 576. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.17.2015 - 7:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @575 No problem man. And if only we could have that kind of thought put into structuring NASCAR events these days.... 577. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 7:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Why do Kyle Busch fans hate Jr and his fans so much? Just curious? It doesn't make sense. Other then that very small incident at Richmond in 08-09 there has never been bad blood between them." Probably bitterness over the Hendrick/Gibbs driver swap. Kyle has clearly proven himself to be the superior driver yet his fans feel he got essentially thrown away for an inferior yet more marketable driver..." I wouldn't call that a "very small incident"... At the time Earnhardt Jr. was the 2nd or 3rd hottest driver behind Carl Edwards. Although he didn't have the wins he had been very consistent up until that point. Denny Hamlin had the car to beat that race and then he slowed down on the race track instead of pitting after having a problem and dominating the race to allow Kyle to catch back up with Jr. after Jr. made a daring pass to overtake both of them off a restart. Hamlin manipulated the outcome of that event. Kyle purposely turned Earnhardt at the end of the race. That wasn't just a "racing deal" as someone had mentioned. He did it on purpose because he was mad about getting moved out of Hendrick for Jr. He was mad about that for a long time. After this event Jr. went downhill in a hurry. I wondered if he would ever overcome that. I guess he got "even" with him in the fall of that year, but I still don't think he overcame that for a long time. That being said, Kyle has done nothing himself to prove that he is a overwhelmingly better driver than Earnhardt. Although he has had a little more success (depending on what one feels success might be), it hasn't been THAT much more success. 578. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) If I had to make a points system of what I think is right, here is what I would do. 1st 55 2nd 45 3rd 40 4th 35 5th 30 6th 27 7th 24 8th 21 9th 18 10th 15 11th 10 12th 9 13th 8 14th 7 15th 6 16th 5 17th 4 18th 3 19th 2 20th 1 21st on back gets nothing. There would also be bonus points for laps led, which would gathered at the end of the season. For every 25 laps you lead, you get 1 bonus point. So someone who led a total of 1000 laps in a season would receive 40 points. So the system would reward winning, dominance and finishing consistently in the top 5 or top 10. And mid pack finishes would be treated the same as DNF's. And of course no Chase. Comments? 579. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 8:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "As for my opinion of Harvick, it hasn't changed. That 4 car has been by far the fastest car week in and week out the last two years. Doesn't 8 wins over that stretch seem pretty disappointing? Despite his aggressive personality front he puts on, he is just the next Terry Labonte. Not a horrible thing, but he has proved to be pretty forgettable. DSSF/JG and I usually agree on a lot, but one thing we haven't agreed on is Harvick... Over the years we had several debates on Harvick. I always gave Harvick support because I always felt he was in less equipment (RCR) during his tenure there compared to what JGR, Hendrick, and Jack Roush had at the time. I always felt once he got in better/equal equipment that he would do well. Lets not take away from Harvick that he STILL won a lot of big races while at RCR having 2nd-3rd tier equipment. He had the best overall season in 2010 and in 2013 as a "lame duck" he still gave RCR everything he had until the end and won 4 races and had 21 top 10's. Last year I knew he would do well with Stewart-Hass. He had a year to remember. He was clutch and won Phoenix last year to get in final 4 and then won the race to win the title. He had somewhat of a Geoff Bodine 1994 season in which he led a lot of races and had some bad luck to keep him from double digit wins, however, unlike Bodine he finished in the top 5 of a lot of his races that he had "bad luck." The same goes for this season, he has won three races and has 12 2nd place finishes. He's had some bad luck not winning some races this year like last, especially this particular race. Tbh, statistically and if you compare the equipment he was in during his time at RCR he has been the best driver since 2010. He was a Hall of Famer BEFORE he even went to Stewart-Hass because of the success he had in middle tier equipment. He won some BIG races when he probably shouldn't have, but he came through in the clutch. He has all the crown jewels/big races on his resume'. He has won Daytona, Daytona Busch Clash/Budweiser Shootout race, Daytona 400, Indy, Coke 600 (2), Talladega, Bristol Night race, All-Star race, Darlington. He has won IROC and the Busch championship and ultimately won Homestead last year in route to clinching the Cup last year when he should have won in 2010. I think saying that he is "just another or next Terry Labonte" is one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard of (btw, I value DSFF's opinion a lot and have. What he said about Nascar and Brian France earlier on this race board is one of the best posts that has been on here discussing how his heart has been broken being a die-hard fan for a while. It is true for a lot of fans. France has taken the fun and heroes out of the sport, and instead put regret, hatred, manipulative thoughts, and big question marks in the hearts of die-hard fans.) He surpassed Terry Labonte a long time ago other than Cups and can equal him in that Sunday. He's a lot better driver than him and with a championship Sunday will insert himself in the top 10 drivers since the modern era began. In no particular order, just naming names... Earnhardt, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough, Allison, Gordon, Waltrip, Johnson, Harvick, Elliott/Wallace... Here Kevin is with a rare chance to follow up his first title with another title, yet nobody is paying any attention." I've been paying attention for a while. 580. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "he is just the next Terry Labonte." Harvick has led 4,385 laps the last 2 years. Labonte led 7,074 laps in his entire career. Even though the wins hasn't shown it, nobody has led this many laps in consecutive seasons since Gordon in '95 and '96. "Doesn't 8 wins over that stretch seem pretty dissapointing?" When he finishes 2nd twelve times in a season, then yes. But only Johnson and Logano have won more over the last 2 years. And besides, I don't see the other HMS (except for the 48 even though they've cooled off lately) and SHR cars running up front every week like the 4. I don't think equipment is the only reason for that. "He caused a ton of restrictor plate crashes and refused to take the blame for them." I might be wrong, but I remember him taking responsibility after the 2005 Dega crash where Waltrip flipped over on the radio. But yeah, he's not the greatest plate racer and he was a wrecking ball at the time. "NO, NO, NO! Not even close to that!" Anyone who thinks that this is like Kulwicki is living in a fantasy land. The era of single car teams are over. FRR has a huge alliance with RCR, which is even more ironic considering that they've outrun them all year. "This season will tie 1974 for the fewest number of race winning organizations." It's even worse considering that SHR and Hendrick are essentially the same team. So in reality, only 4 teams have won. "Kyle has done nothing himself to prove that he is an overwhelmingly better driver than Earnhardt." I'll give a couple stats. Kyle has 6 seasons with 1000+ laps led to Earnhardt's 3. He also has 8 more wins in 5 less years. But that's not a knock on Dale though, as he is an elite driver himself. Anyways I'm ready for the season to be over. Little exciting racing, the incidents in the Chase that have given NASCAR a black eye, the Chase itself, etc. Let's just get Homestead over with and hope that 2016 will be better. 581. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 8:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Here's my ideal points system. Its pretty similar to the pre-2011 points system but there are differences. 1st: 200 2nd: 175 3rd: 165 4th: 155 5th: 145 6th: 140 7th: 135 8th: 130 9th: 125 10th: 120 11th: 116 12th: 112 13th: 108 14th: 104 15th: 100 16th: 96 17th: 92 18th: 88 19th: 84 20th: 80 21st: 76 22nd: 72 23rd: 68 24th: 64 25th: 60 26th: 57 27th: 54 28th: 51 29th: 48 30th: 45 31st: 42 32nd: 39 33rd: 36 34th: 33 35th: 30 36th: 27 37th: 24 38th: 21 39th: 18 40th: 15 41st: 12 42nd: 9 43rd: 6 10 bonus points for winning the pole (does not count if field is set by practice speeds) 1 point bonus for leading a lap 5 point bonus for leading 100 laps in a race 5 point ponus for leading the most laps in a race So the maximum points a driver can get in a race weekend is 221. Chase: 2004-2006 rules. Top ten in points after 26 races advance, no wild cards. Field is set by 5 point intervals before race 27. 582. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Big Mac I like some of the ideas for the points system. I think any anti-Chase setup would be awesome. I'm for it. I just don't know if sponsors would go for not getting ANY points. Tbh, I partly believe France went to the Chase format was to keep sponsors rolling in and keeping them because some major sponsors were leaving or talking about leaving before the input of the Chase. The Chase brought more intrigue to sponsors for a "playoff system" where 10-16 drivers had a chance at the end compared to an average of 2-3 at the end for an all season title like the Winston Cup. 583. David posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I like the system proposed in 581. Too bad it would apparently blow too many fans' minds if one tried to explain it to them. I still think that every starter in a race should receive points, because that sets them apart from those who failed to qualify. The definite downside to this is the drivers who take a damaged car back out on tracks under the guise of "earning points" and end up affecting the race. In that respect, I also like the system in post 573. "I hate Harvick" I don't think I have EVER seen Sean display this much antipathy toward any driver. Even Helio Castroneves. 584. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:29 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The thing is though, drivers taking a damaged car back out on the track has been a part of NASCAR since at least the modern era and you could probably even find examples of people doing it as far back as the 50s and 60s if you looked hard enough. If they can fix the car and get it back out, they will, and there's nothing that will ever change that. Its really just a part of racing. 585. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) I suggest going back to the old Latford system only give 20-25 bonus points for 1st place Screw the Chase and its manufactured outcomes 586. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Also note that it is impossible for the second place finisher to get more points than the winner in my system, even if they win the pole, lead over 100 laps and the most laps. That would put them at 196 points while the race winner gets 201 at the worst (unless its some bizarre occurance like where the winner gets his win stripped and the second place driver who didn't lead any laps is given the win). 587. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just because something has happened in the sport for over 50 years doesn't mean it's right. I always found racing with a damaged car dangerous due to the speed differences and you wouldn't make up that many points. Case in point, after being in the garage in Texas, Logano gained a grand total of two spots. And besides, start and parking has happened basically since NASCAR's founding, and most people hate it, regardless of how long it's been around. 588. Sean posted: 11.17.2015 - 9:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The points system I usually propose is almost exactly double what Ak47 used, because I'm still thinking in terms of the Latford system which awarded 180-185 to the winner: 1-5: 200, 160, 140, 120, 100 6-10: 90, 80, 70, 60, 50 11-15: 45, 40, 35, 30, 25 16-20: 22, 19, 16, 13, 10 21-25: 8, 6, 4, 2, 1 26+: 0 (but I could live with 1 if you a remain a firm believer of the entire field scoring points) Pole: 5 Each 10% of a race led: 2 (I would not want to bias it towards certain tracks with more laps...so say, somebody leads 270 laps at Bristol and they would get 10 points since they led between 50-60% of the laps, same as if somebody led 108 laps in the Daytona 500, which would be the same proportion.) I'd also consider bonus points for fastest lap if that was a statistic NASCAR cared about, but it is clearly not. What I like about this: 1. Mediocrity is no longer rewarded over poor finishes. 2. Proper gaps between the top positions. 3. Memorable point totals for each fifth position. If NASCAR's reason for introducing 43-1 is that people can't understand a points system unless you can easily remember the point totals per position, this and #4 will fix that. 4. Steadily declining gaps between each group of five (which the Latford points system had and I liked, but they weren't nearly steep enough descents.) 5. Awarding 26th-43rd the same points will discourage teams from bringing damaged cars back on the track, which I have always found one of the less professional things about NASCAR, and hopefully also prevent Edwards/Kenseth-style retaliation in the future (since their teams likely wouldn't have let them back on the track to do these things.) 6. No longer rewarding anyone for leading during a pit stop exchange. I'd be okay with rewarding a point for anybody who took the lead on-track, but who knows if NASCAR would be able to come up with some good definition for what 'on-track' means that wouldn't end up being a loophole for teams to exploit? 7. Rewarding drivers who only led a significant portion in a race will get rid of some goofy things like drivers letting teammates by for a lap by team orders. "Earnhardt, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough, Allison, Gordon, Waltrip, Johnson, Harvick, Elliott/Wallace..." I agree Harvick has already surpassed T. Labonte but this is overrating him. Worse than Wallace, worse than Stewart (who you didn't list), probably even/slightly behind Elliott, and slightly ahead of Kenseth/Jarrett. Stat-wise, he has easily passed Gant/Irvan/Richmond, but give them that length of time in the equipment Harvick had and they would match him. Davey Allison, Bodine, Bonnett, and Rudd however I think would NOT and would be a step behind. Replace Harvick and Elliott with Wallace (by himself) and Stewart and I would agree. Harvick probably is in the next five with Elliott, Martin, pick two of (Ky. Busch, Gant, Irvan, Kenseth, Richmond) "The era of single car teams are over. FRR has a huge alliance with RCR, which is even more ironic considering that they've outrun them all year." I think it may be slowly making a comeback because most of the established powerhouses are fading and some of the others aren't having as consistent results between their teams as they did in the past. This sort of reminds me of the late '90s era when Roush had Martin and Burton running well with a handful of mid-pack cars, and ditto for the other elite teams. The single-car teams still had SOME prayer then. I think things are changing. And considering how little RCR has done, one can consider this a legitimate single-car entry in a sense. They ARE the team, like Brad WAS Penske in 2012 (before ceding it to Joey immediately afterward). Kyle is easily better than Junior at everything except restrictor plate races...there's no debate. As stated above, he's even better at closing than Junior is. Junior is what you get when you put a B. Labonte/J. Burton/Kahne/Newman/Marlin level talent in the best possible equipment for an entire career. "I don't think I have EVER seen Sean display this much antipathy toward any driver." I haven't seen any other driver actually intentionally cause a Big One at a restrictor plate race or pretend to be a bad boy but only surrounded by his entourage while driving as conservatively as Terry Labonte (I actually agree with the Labonte comparison in this sense; Harvick has a very smooth and steady driving style except when he decides to randomly punt and/or feud with people, but he is still a much better driver than either Labonte). But he is not the only driver I hate. I'd love to see the entire Stewart-Haas Racing team replaced with likable grassroots underdogs. When Kurt and Danica seem to be the most LIKABLE ones, that is seriously saying a lot. This is probably the least-likable multi-car team in auto racing history. My frustration in Cup is that I can't seem to care about anyone (I did just call almost the entire Cup field prima donnas not that long ago...) "Even Helio Castroneves." I can no longer bring myself to care about him now that he's finally washed-up I think. Still eagerly await his retirement and replacement by (hopefully) Josef Newgarden. 589. Sean posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) To be fair to Castroneves, he did beat Pagenaud in points this year and won a bunch of poles. I don't even get what happened to Pagenaud this year, but whatever... But I do think he'll only win a couple more races and Kanaan as well. 590. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) Who the hell put Harvick ahead of Rusty? That is ALMOST as bad as cjs ranking Pearson 7th all time. Almost. Rusty won 6 or more races (something Harvick has never done) four times. And it isn't just that he did it, it was when he did it. During NASCAR's competitive peak, and an era with more drivers winning and less races. He did it in '88, '89, '93, and '94. His entire peak coincided with Dale's. And Bill's. And Mark's. And Davey's. Richmond, Ernie, Alan, Bodine, etc. And I stand by the Terry comparison. Championship wins that aren't taken at face value? Check. Terry has two, Harvick has one. Multiple long dry spells? Check. Terry had September '80 thru Fall '83, '89-'93, and 2000-Labor Day 2003. Harvick Summer '03-Spring '05 and February 2007 thru May 2010. Very few spectacular on track moments that didn't involve Dale or Dale's memory? Check. (Remember, his close window in the '07 Daytona 500 was a) controversial due to the lack of a caution and b) happened on Feb 18). 591. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) Lol, just realized they renamed it Jeff Gordon Raceway and it's Fall race, which happens after September ends, just couldn't do as good as it did earlier in the year, only making it 219 of the 312 scheduled laps. Poetic! 592. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:44 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Since Earnhardt won the race this weekend without leading a green flag lap, it made me wonder when the last time a driver won a race without leading a lap under green flag conditions?" Earnhardt led lap 194 which was a green flag lap. "I'll give a couple stats. Kyle has 6 seasons with 1000+ laps led to Earnhardt's 3. He also has 8 more wins in 5 less years. But that's not a knock on Dale though, as he is an elite driver himself." "Kyle is easily better than Junior at everything except restrictor plate races...there's no debate. As stated above, he's even better at closing than Junior is. Junior is what you get when you put a B. Labonte/J. Burton/Kahne/Newman/Marlin level talent in the best possible equipment for an entire career." I think KyBusch has a slight edge because of wins and consistency. Over the last four years Earnhardt has been a little better besides the win column (even though Kyle missed a 1/3 of season this year). Dale has two Daytona wins though regardless if it's restrictor plate or not and that carries more weight historically and over time than other tracks. Earnhardt is an underrated short track racer. Tbh, they both have been underachievers. Kyle has a chance to shut that up Sunday. ""Earnhardt, Pearson, Petty, Yarborough, Allison, Gordon, Waltrip, Johnson, Harvick, Elliott/Wallace..." I agree Harvick has already surpassed T. Labonte but this is overrating him. Worse than Wallace, worse than Stewart (who you didn't list), probably even/slightly behind Elliott, and slightly ahead of Kenseth/Jarrett. Stat-wise, he has easily passed Gant/Irvan/Richmond, but give them that length of time in the equipment Harvick had and they would match him. Davey Allison, Bodine, Bonnett, and Rudd however I think would NOT and would be a step behind. Replace Harvick and Elliott with Wallace (by himself) and Stewart and I would agree. Harvick probably is in the next five with Elliott, Martin, pick two of (Ky. Busch, Gant, Irvan, Kenseth, Richmond)" I did forget Stewart some how (Wow, how they mighty have fallen, if someone has been forgotten or been an afterthought it has been him... He did win one of the weakest Cup season's in 2002 (May not have won that without Marlin injury) and 2011 he was real fortunate to win with Edwards having the highest or one of the highest average finishes in the Chase of all time, I think it was 4.7 or 4.9... Stewart still hasn't got that elusive Daytona 500 win and more than likely he won't get it. Wallace was terrible at plate tracks and he wasn't a big race driver. He had no wins at Daytona, Talladega, Indy or Darlington! Darlington is a racer's track. He was close at Indy three times. I give him a break because he had to deal with Earnhardt like Ewing, Barkley, Miller, Malone and Stockton had to deal with Jordan. Elliott was terrible for the most part on short tracks and road courses. He had 2 short track wins (both memorable against Bodine at Bristol and Kulwicki at Richmond) and one road course win he lucked up at. Jarrett had better engines at Yates and won some big races with them and won the Cup in '99. Harvick is a more diverse driver than Wallace, Elliott, Martin, Jarrett, Rudd, and Irvan. I really don't understand how Irvan is mentioned. He was a menace and weapon out on the race track truth be known. I give Harvick the nod over Kenseth (and it's a slight nod) only because Kenseth has been in top tier equipment with Roush and JGR while Harvick was in 2nd-3rd tier equipment with RCR and still had success and then got with Stewart-Haas and has been the best out there the last two years without a doubt. Stewart hasn't been able to overcome his two sprint car wrecks physically and mentally. Again though, Kenseth and Stewart was in more superior equipment than what Harvick was in for most of his career. So in conclusion, Harvick trumps Kenseth because he has been just as successful in lesser equipment and has a chance for two titles Sunday. Harvick trumps Wallace because has wins in big races at Daytona, 'dega, Indy, and Darlington AND Wallace was in superior equipment while Harvick was at RCR. Harvick trumps Elliott because he is a better short track racer. Harvick trumps Martin because he has a title and Daytona win. I really don't want to get in why Harvick trumps Richmond. Lets just say Harvick took better care of himself off the track and was more professional about his job. Harvick trumps Jarrett because Jarrett was in great cars and Harvick is a better short track and road course dirver AND Harvick has a chance for two titles. Harvick trumps Ky Busch at the moment. I'm not sure how Busch is in the discussion. I guess he could be Sunday, but I still wouldn't have him ahead of Harvick due to "major" victories. I think Harvick moves ahead of Stewart all time with a championship on Sunday. It will be interesting to see if Harvick gets any payback somehow because of his shenanigans at 'dega. 593. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 10:53 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Yeah but to repeat what someone else said Terry was never dominant. As for Harvick being better than Rusty... I don't know, probably not but if he keeps it up for a few more years I think its certainly a reasonable thing to say. And Jason/DSFF you should really think about sticking around for a while on here I mean just the past few days I've had a great time debating about different drivers and the activity in the comments has been about as high as its ever been on a non-race day since I've been on this site, people like you, NRF/Hinch/Alex, David, Cornys, you should really stay. 594. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:01 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Who the hell put Harvick ahead of Rusty? That is ALMOST as bad as cjs ranking Pearson 7th all time. Almost. Rusty won 6 or more races (something Harvick has never done) four times. And it isn't just that he did it, it was when he did it. During NASCAR's competitive peak, and an era with more drivers winning and less races. He did it in '88, '89, '93, and '94. His entire peak coincided with Dale's. And Bill's. And Mark's. And Davey's. Richmond, Ernie, Alan, Bodine, etc. And I stand by the Terry comparison. Championship wins that aren't taken at face value? Check. Terry has two, Harvick has one. Multiple long dry spells? Check. Terry had September '80 thru Fall '83, '89-'93, and 2000-Labor Day 2003. Harvick Summer '03-Spring '05 and February 2007 thru May 2010. Very few spectacular on track moments that didn't involve Dale or Dale's memory? Check. (Remember, his close window in the '07 Daytona 500 was a) controversial due to the lack of a caution and b) happened on Feb 18)." I don't understand how Harvick winning on the day Dale died could be an issue, but whatever on that one and Nascar not throwing out the caution was one of the rare things they have got right over the last decade, when the wreck started to happen Harvick actually had the lead. I put Harvick over Rusty because he has been able to win at Daytona, Talladega, Indy, and Darlington. And Rusty never was really close to wins at Daytona, 'dega, and Darlington... not even a handful of times... At Daytona in '98 and especially at '99 he was in the thick of it and Darlington a racer's track I think he got 2nd twice at the most. Rusty was in more superior cars than Harvick has been over the course of their careers. Also, Harvick has had to deal with Johnson, Gordon, JGR, and Roush over the course of his career and being in lesser equipment until last year. So even though Rusty had to deal with Dale, Martin, Elliott, the 28 and 88 car, Harvick has had to deal with top competition as well. If he wins the title there is no question or debate about it that he moves ahead of Rusty all-time. 595. Ryan W posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One major difference between Harvick and Labonte is Harvick has more wins, more major wins, and Labonte drove for Hendrick and Junior Johnson, while Harvick drove for RCR who hasn't been very competitive since... well.. Harvick (although Newman did well in Chase last year we all know it was fabricated). We know Harvick was the better driver all around in 2010, last year and this year. It hasn't been close. Truthfully he has been better than anyone since 2010 started. 596. 88&4Fan posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:11 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "I don't understand how Harvick winning on the day Dale died could be an issue, but whatever on that one and Nascar not throwing out the caution was one of the rare things they have got right over the last decade, when the wreck started to happen Harvick actually had the lead." 100% agreed there. That race will always be my #1 all-time favorite race since its the race that got me into NASCAR, and I never understood why there was ever any controversy at the finish regarding whether there should've been a caution. First off, they wrecked in turn four. Throwing the caution at that point would be idiotic, since they only had about three seconds of racing left and it would have ruined one of the greatest finishes ever. And second, as you said, Harvick was more than likely ahead if they would've thrown the caution (depending on when they would've thrown it). 597. The Long Shot posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I've never really understood the fascination with elevating the wins of certain tracks over others. We all know the historical significance of tracks like Daytona and Darlington; that doesn't mean those victories should be considered "more impressive". Rusty wasn't great at plate tracks, but few have ever been better at short tracks, where Harvick has been solid but not superb. If I had to organize modern era drivers by tiers, it would go something like this: Tier 1: Petty Pearson Earnhardt Tier 2: Gordon Yarborough Waltrip Allison Johnson Tier 3: Stewart Wallace Harvick Elliott Jarrett Martin T. Labonte Kenseth Tier 4: Rudd D. Allison Gant Irvan Tier 5: Ky. Busch Ku. Busch Richmond B. Labonte Earnhardt Jr. Bodine J. Burton Bonnett 598. Sean posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I think KyBusch has a slight edge because of wins and consistency. Over the last four years Earnhardt has been a little better besides the win column (even though Kyle missed a 1/3 of season this year). Dale has two Daytona wins though regardless if it's restrictor plate or not and that carries more weight historically and over time than other tracks. Earnhardt is an underrated short track racer. Tbh, they both have been underachievers. Kyle has a chance to shut that up Sunday." Junior at Hendrick reminds me of Ken Schrader. He's getting the wins Schrader failed to get on the rare occasions he contended to win, so that's a plus, but he has lately been getting consistent top tens but seldom actually contending outside plate tracks. Maybe Terry Labonte would be the better comparison. He really hasn't led his team since 2006, while Kyle Busch has done so a few times at Gibbs (granted, Junior has had much stronger teammates). As little as I care about Buschwhacking, I think Kyle annihilating minor league fields is a point in his favor in a comparison like that, simply because I don't see Junior being that kind of juggernaut in recent years, even if he was a Busch champion also. I don't think Junior's slightly greater consistency is enough to overcome Kyle's much greater dominance and versatility. "Stewart still hasn't got that elusive Daytona 500 win and more than likely he won't get it." And Bayne, M. Waltrip, Cope all have. Who really cares? The plate races are mostly about car + luck. Marquee races don't mean anything more than any other race because they have the same fields and people try to win every race just as much in general. Road course races, short tracks, sub-1.5 mile superspeedways, Pocono, and Indy are what matter most to me. And Stewart's sizable win advantage still makes the difference, not to mention he improved Gibbs and Stewart-Haas more than I think Harvick has improved any team. "Wallace was terrible at plate tracks and he wasn't a big race driver. He had no wins at Daytona, Talladega, Indy or Darlington! Darlington is a racer's track. He was close at Indy three times. I give him a break because he had to deal with Earnhardt like Ewing, Barkley, Miller, Malone and Stockton had to deal with Jordan." Darlington is a good point, but he won at every other track that matters, amassed a top ten win total, and as Jason said, had much more dominant seasons than Harvick has ever had, although I disagree with Jason about when NASCAR's competitive peak was. I think 2001-03 was NASCAR's peak in overall talent as this period basically had most of the '90s stars except Earnhardt, Irvan, Allison, Gant, and Kulwicki, along with the guys who dominated the next decade like Stewart, Johnson, Kurt Busch, Harvick, Kenseth... But even in that period, Harvick was barely better than Rusty and Rusty was not at his peak. I don't think Harvick having marquee race wins trumps what Rusty did. Harvick has had two knockout seasons but Rusty had more, and I don't think Penske when Rusty was there was much better than Childress when Harvick was there really. "Elliott was terrible for the most part on short tracks and road courses. He had 2 short track wins (both memorable against Bodine at Bristol and Kulwicki at Richmond) and one road course win he lucked up at." That's why I do think Elliott vs. Harvick was debatable. Elliott was very reliant on the strength of his equipment, but he did get the results, as even though his equipment was better, his best seasons were too. "Jarrett had better engines at Yates and won some big races with them and won the Cup in '99." Agree and I do take Harvick over Jarrett. "Harvick is a more diverse driver than Wallace, Elliott, Martin, Jarrett, Rudd, and Irvan." Wallace - only if you really rate restrictor plate races highly. On the rest of the schedule, I wouldn't say Harvick was more versatile. Elliott and Jarrett - yes. Rudd - I guess so. I weight the road course races/short tracks much more so I think he gets underrated a bit, but the fact is he did drive for a bunch of powerhouse teams so he should have had more large superspeedway wins than he did (but I'll add he was with almost every marquee team at the wrong time; Childress before they took off, Hendrick at their weakest period, etc...) Martin and Irvan - unquestionably as versatile as Harvick Yes, Harvick got some marquee race wins and Martin didn't, and to some degree that is Martin's fault as he could be conservative sometimes in races I think other drivers could have won in his position ('07 Daytona 500, '09 Brickyard 400) but as far as being able to win anywhere, Martin and Irvan were just as good at that as Harvick was. "I really don't understand how Irvan is mentioned. He was a menace and weapon out on the race track truth be known." Whoa...you're defending Harvick who intentionally caused a Big One and at Watkins Glen attempted (and laughably failed) to wreck Joey Logano on the last lap after running out of fuel, and calling IRVAN the menace? Harvick indeed has such a smooth and subtle driving style most of the time that the intentionally obnoxious stuff he does can fly under-the-radar, while Irvan admittedly drove way over his head too often. Yes, Irvan was too wild in the #4 car because he was WAY overdriving what I believe was like a 12th-15th place car most weeks and trying to win with it. He and Gant and Benny Parsons were I think the best examples in the modern example of lifting up *truly* weak teams and making them competitive. I realize Irvan's overdriving led him to be too carelessly reckless sometimes and cause high-profile wrecks other people did not, but he compensated for that for winning races only maybe like 2 or 3 others could have won in that car. His drive from last to first at Sears Point in 1992 was better than any of Harvick's, and Irvan's wins were perfectly balanced across track types, which VERY few drivers can say. Irvan also holds the record for the most percentage of races won (1990-present) via on-track passes rather than pit strategy, etc... (although Harvick was very close in this statistic as well, and this is one of his strengths also). Harvick has a very smooth driving style with finesse but sometimes randomly wrecks people. Irvan had a very wild driving style which led to him winning some races almost no one else would win but wild unintentional but unfortunate wrecks (Morgan-McClure was NOWHERE near as good as Harvick-era Childress, except on the plate tracks, sorry...) Harvick's get downplayed because he's smooth enough to create quiet carnage (and because he has a knack of sometimes instigating feuds between other drivers he has nothing to do with, which also causes him to fly under the radar some) while Irvan's get exaggerated because they were much bigger incidents (but do you think he intentionally caused all those 10-15 car wrecks? No, which is different from what Harvick did at Talladega). Really, Harvick and Irvan are pretty similar I think except that Harvick caused his carnage on purpose and Irvan by accident. Attacking Irvan to defend Harvick does not make a lot of sense. I think Irvan is right there with Martin, Kyle, Gant, and Richmond in the top five modern era non-champions. I probably wouldn't take him first but I think they're all pretty close. "I give Harvick the nod over Kenseth (and it's a slight nod) only because Kenseth has been in top tier equipment with Roush and JGR while Harvick was in 2nd-3rd tier equipment with RCR and still had success" Harvick over Kenseth, I agree, primarily because he's more versatile. "I really don't want to get in why Harvick trumps Richmond. Lets just say Harvick took better care of himself off the track and was more professional about his job." The first I agree, the second I weep for the future of NASCAR. If Harvick is the model of what a professional driver should be, I eagerly await more unprofessional drivers. "Harvick trumps Ky Busch at the moment. I'm not sure how Busch is in the discussion. I guess he could be Sunday, but I still wouldn't have him ahead of Harvick due to "major" victories." Except for the last two years, Kyle has been more dominant. I agree Kevin has always been more consistent and would give him a slight edge, but it's close and Kyle will certainly pass Kevin's accomplishments in five years even as dominant as Kevin is now. With the way championships and marquee races have been diluted, I hardly care about that. 599. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Davey Allison, Bodine, Bonnett, and Rudd however I think would NOT and would be a step behind." No way in Hell. Davey won 19 times at every kind of track for a team bursting with talent, but one that went through an ownership change, in 6 and 1/2 years at NASCAR's competitive peak before his death at age 32, right as he was entering a driver's tradition peak years. Bodine also won at every kind of track. He had worse luck with engines than anyone except Buddy Baker costing him many wins and better points finishes, all in the competitive peak. The smart mouth know it all rude as hell no manners Yankee bastard would destroy him in equipment that held up. Bonnett never raced full time for a top team. The Wood Brothers were partial schedules and beginning to wane already (they have won 7 total races since Neil left them..... in 1983!). And his time with Junior Johnson was in their R&D car. Yet he still racked up a good amount of wins despite always being injured. Rudd was a journeyman that won for everyone he raced for in his prime ('83-'02). And whoever is putting Ernie down has no idea what they are talking about. He was the truth. In a shortened prime in good equipment ('90-'94) he won 12 times in fields loaded with legends. Then after a traumatic brain injury, a kiss of Death in racing, he won 3 more times. Yeah he caused a lot of wrecks. But his talent and ability to win is undeniable. And I don't even know where to start with the "Harvick has an edge over Bill and Rusty" foolishness. Chew on these numbers: "Versatile" Harvick has only 3 more wins on short tracks than Bill had and only 3 more plate wins than Rusty. Keep chewing. 600. Sean posted: 11.17.2015 - 11:46 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And his time with Junior Johnson was in their R&D car." Hmm, didn't know that. For some reason, I actually thought Waltrip and Bonnett had theoretically equal stuff (well, equal in the same sense that Hendrick cars were equal, when the 24 and 48 were always better than the others). That may change my mind. "No way in Hell. Davey won 19 times at every kind of track for a team bursting with talent, but one that went through an ownership change, in 6 and 1/2 years at NASCAR's competitive peak before his death at age 32, right as he was entering a driver's tradition peak years." "Rudd was a journeyman that won for everyone he raced for in his prime ('83-'02)." I now rate both Davey and Rudd a lot lower than I used to because I went through past race footage for every Cup race from 1990-present determining whether each race was won (the lead change that ultimately gave the leader control of the race) via an on-track pass, an off-track pass in the pits, an incidental pass (due to the leader running across bad luck), or a strategic assist (passing a driver on the track after beating the previous leader out of the pits). As much as I wish it were different because I really do like Davey and Rudd much more than Harvick, Davey was the weakest by this measure winning only 2 of his 13 races from 1990-present due to an on-track pass (although I wasn't able to find footage for the 1991 or 1992 Michigan races, so he could go up to 4). Even if Davey's number is 2 instead of 4, that would only tie him at Rudd with 4/13. Of all the drivers with 10+ wins from 1990-present the only one who had a worse natural winning percentage (percentage of wins determined by an on-track pass) was Ryan Newman in 5/17. That changed my opinions of Davey and Rudd markedly. I do think the early '90s fields were stronger than today's, but I actually think the early 2000s fields were stronger than the early '90s (most of the same drivers were still there along with this generation's stars). Definitely the field increasingly sucks now though. With Bodine and Baker as with Irvan, there's always the question is if unreliability is the driver's fault due to being too aggressive or simply the quality of the equipment or sheer dumb luck. That's one valid criticism that I might use for Irvan, but calling him a menace and a weapon and Harvick not seems a little odd. I just think Bodine, much like Rudd never had a knockout single season even to the degree Harvick had, but I have much more respect for Bodine and Rudd's personalities... I guess I'm almost arguing a devil's advocate. I can't stand Harvick, but I think you're underrating him, but not as much as I think Ryan is overrating him. 601. Scott B posted: 11.18.2015 - 12:37 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) I'll never quite understand how Rusty Wallace had so many problems at restrctor plate races... especially Daytona... when that was where Mike Wallace was at his best. 602. murb posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Good god I have a lot of stuff I want to respond to... "Harvick is a more diverse driver than Wallace, Elliott, Martin, Jarrett, Rudd, and Irvan." No way he's more diverse than Wallace (seriously, Rusty may be one of the top six or seven most diverse drivers ever - something like 25 short track wins, numerous dominating wins and runs at Pocono and the road courses - Harvick will never reach Rusty's level in that regard). Jarrett and Elliott I'll buy I guess. I'd say it's a wash with him, Martin, Rudd, and Irvan. "And I stand by the Terry comparison." I think Jarrett is a better comparison, especially when you consider that he's won a huge portion of his races (and his championship) in the latter stages of his career, which was exactly what DJ did. Jarrett was probably more consistent from year to year (although Harvick has been pretty rock solid over the past three or four years and shows no signs of slowing down now that he's with a "powerhouse" team), but other than that I think Harvick and Jarrett have way more in common than Harvick and Terry do (like I said, putting up big numbers late in their careers, similar versatility, a bunch of "Crown Jewel" wins, etc). "Truthfully he has been better than anyone since 2010 started." I think Jimmie has been better still. He's probably second to Jimmie. "Tier 1: Petty Pearson Earnhardt" We pretty much have the same exact "tiers", except I'd put Gordon in Tier 1. I'd also probably throw Hamlin and Edwards into Tier 5, as I think they're both undoubtedly better than guys like Burton and Bonnett who are in that tier. "Harvick over Kenseth, I agree, primarily because he's more versatile." This is really hard to say. I probably need like two more years before deciding on this one. If Harvick keeps going like he is now I imagine he'll eventually overtake Kenseth for me, but for right now I think I still have Kenseth ahead just because of his entire body of work compared to Harvick's. 603. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I'll never quite understand how Rusty Wallace had so many problems at restrctor plate races... especially Daytona... when that was where Mike Wallace was at his best." That's a great point, because a lot of drivers that we have thrown in there and debated about were pretty good at Daytona during some point in their career. However, Rusty was not. He was 0 for 40+ at Daytona and Darlington. Kenseth has been solid, Harvick, Elliott, Jarrett, but Rusty wasn't. He could just never get a good feel for it. He definitely had the equipment. And four times a year you had to be good at the plate races. It's why he didn't win in 1993. He sucked at them. He wasn't good at them before the plates went on either. So how could he be considered versatile? He never won at Darlington (a pure racer's track). How could he be considered great and not have a win under his belt at Darlington and when he competed they raced there twice a year? So there's no excuse for that. A true legend needs a Daytona and Darlington win and Rusty just couldn't get them. Harvick has them. Someone mentioned that some drivers were too conservative such as Martin, Kenseth, Gant, etc, but that's where Harvick separates himself, he has been aggressive at the right time. He has been an opportunist at the most crucial time of big races. Winning the last two races last year should speak a lot for him, for whatever reason it doesn't. 15 top 2's out of 35 races this year and as competitive as Nascar is now is very impressive. Chew on these numbers... Harvick, Elliott, and Wallace each have one championship a piece. Only one of them can make it two Sunday. Keep chewing. 604. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 2:01 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) These debates about drivers and eras are pretty cool and fun, however, I really don't get some of the love that Ernie Irvan gets. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the guy was a menace to racing. He about killed Neil Bonnett running several laps down to the leader at Darlington in 1990. He about killed Dale Earnhardt at Talladega in '96. He about killed himself on a couple of occasions. He was winning the All-Star race in 1994 and went through the grass as the leader through the dog leg and wiped himself out of contention. He gift wrapped Davey Allison a Daytona 500 by taking out most of the leaders on a stupid move midway through the race. He overcorrected a flat tire at Atlanta and ruined Davey Allison's championship hopes in '92. I respect a lot of your opinions and thoughts regarding and debating Harvick compared to others because they are close. I think had Harvick ran for Hendrick most of his career he would have 60-70 wins easy. He finally got to a great team (might I add that with that team he's about he only one that has done well, Kurt here and there, but not as consistent) and the rest has been history like I always thought it would be. And the crazy part is that he had great success at RCR. I feel like he overachieved at RCR with the equipment RCR had. By the way, someone brought up Penske from the 90's and RCR from 2002-present being the same... umm, no. Penske overwhelmingly had more during each respective time period. Anyways these debates are fun, but I usually stop reading when I see people talk up Ernie. All he did was wreck people and put a lot of lives in danger with some of his maneuvers. 605. WinstonCupStandings posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) @553 Thanks, Ryan. I enjoy doing it, and plan on doing it for 2016 as well. 606. Ak47 posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:47 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) Considering that NASCAR will probably always insist on the entire field scoring a different number of pts based on finish, I think this is the ideal system: 1-120 2-100 3-90 4-80 5-70 6-10: 65-60-55-50-45 11-20: 43-41-39-37-35-33-31-29-27-25 21-23...43-1 (decreasing by 1 for each position) +3 for the pole, +3 for leading the most laps, and +1 if you lead more than 5% of the race (5 laps at the Glen, 25 laps at Bristol). No bonus points for pit cycle lead changes or other nonsense (like 30 drivers scoring a bonus point at Talladega) 607. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 12:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) DSFF made a comment about Gordon choking in the fall? Its official he is back! 608. The Long Shot posted: 11.18.2015 - 12:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "We pretty much have the same exact "tiers", except I'd put Gordon in Tier 1. I'd also probably throw Hamlin and Edwards into Tier 5, as I think they're both undoubtedly better than guys like Burton and Bonnett who are in that tier." Probably have to agree on the latter point. As for Gordon, deciding whether to place him in Tier 1 or Tier 2 was probably the hardest decision of that entire bunch. I could easily have gone either way. Davey Allison and Kyle Busch were pretty hard ones as well, Allison because of how short his career was and Kyle for, well, a lot of reasons, haha. Definitely could have bumped Allison down one and Busch up one. "A true legend needs a Daytona and Darlington win and Rusty just couldn't get them. Harvick has them." Again, this argument is silly because it's talking purely about the historical standing of a track. Elevating the importance of tracks because we've somehow decided they're "legendary" makes no sense. I could point you to Martinsville Speedway, the oldest track on the circuit (historical standing: check) and one of the toughest to drive on (skill: check). Wallace has 7 victories, 25 top 10's, 3 poles, and an avg. finish of 11.9. Harvick has 1 victory, 14 top 10's, 0 poles, and an avg. finish of 15.9. The only short track I would consider Harvick to be borderline great at is Richmond (another track from NASCAR's infancy), and even there Wallace destroys him (twice as many victories, almost twice as many top 10's, three times as many poles, and a higher avg. finish by a place and a half). "Chew on these numbers... Harvick, Elliott, and Wallace each have one championship a piece. Only one of them can make it two Sunday. Keep chewing." And Terry Labonte already has two championships, so he must be better than all of them, right? 609. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 12:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @591 If he couldn't finish off seasons how do you explain 1998? With respect, sir(Lieutenant Worf style). 610. David posted: 11.18.2015 - 12:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Who the hell put Harvick ahead of Rusty? That is ALMOST as bad as cjs ranking Pearson 7th all time. Almost." "Lol, just realized they renamed it Jeff Gordon Raceway and it's Fall race, which happens after September ends, just couldn't do as good as it did earlier in the year, only making it 219 of the 312 scheduled laps. Poetic!" "The smart mouth know it all rude as hell no manners Yankee bastard..." It's great to have you back. "We pretty much have the same exact "tiers", except I'd put Gordon in Tier 1." Hmm...no love for Bobby Allison? He drove for nearly everyone (Cotton Owens, himself, Holman-Moody, Junior Johnson, himself, Penske, himself again, Bud Moore, Harry Ranier, DiGard, himself, and the Stavolas) and garnered 85 wins and seven consecutive top-six points finishes. He also has eleven more top-five finishes than Gordon in 78 less starts. He seems to be one heck of an underrated driver around here. If you're going to include Gordon in Tier 1, at least put in Allison as well. And by the end of his career, Jimmie Johnson will be in there as well, if he doesn't belong already. 611. David posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) The dreaded news has come: Atlanta Motor Speedway is going to be repaved, presumably after the March race. Kentucky is set to get a new surface as well. 612. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Again, this argument is silly because it's talking purely about the historical standing of a track. Elevating the importance of tracks because we've somehow decided they're "legendary" makes no sense. I could point you to Martinsville Speedway, the oldest track on the circuit (historical standing: check) and one of the toughest to drive on (skill: check). Wallace has 7 victories, 25 top 10's, 3 poles, and an avg. finish of 11.9. Harvick has 1 victory, 14 top 10's, 0 poles, and an avg. finish of 15.9. The only short track I would consider Harvick to be borderline great at is Richmond (another track from NASCAR's infancy), and even there Wallace destroys him (twice as many victories, almost twice as many top 10's, three times as many poles, and a higher avg. finish by a place and a half)." When Rusty raced you had 8-10 drivers that could win on the circuit, Harvick didn't have the equipment that Rusty had and had to go up against 10-15 guys that could win on the circuit. I'll give Rusty some credit that he didn't have as many races as Harvick has got to run (honestly had Dale Sr. had 36 races a year during his prime he probably would have won 95-100 races). Harvick being as successful as he was at RCR speaks a lot about him. He won a lot of races that he shouldn't have won. THAT says a lot about him already. He could take a 5th-10th place car that he had at RCR and win with it. How often does a lame duck win 4 races in a year knowing that he won't be back the same team? He'll give it everything he has regardless of the circumstances such as having problems with his sponsor (Shell) or leaving a team. Again, Darlington is a racer's track. It's not just legendary because it's old. It makes a man out of you. You have to rim ride your car around there and hope not to hit the wall and go as fast as possible right along the wall. Why Rusty doesn't have a single victory there is beyond me. The closest he came to winning was in 1988 or '89 when he finished 2nd to Bill. It's debatable if Kevin Harvick is in the top 10 drivers of all time since the modern era. He will solidify himself and be in the top 10 all time in the modern era if he wins the championship on Sunday (truthfully this should be his 3rd title if he does win)... leaving any doubt that he will pass Rusty Wallace, Bill Elliott, and Terry Labonte in all-time rankings. Take a look at his resume' and his body of work with the equipment that he had with RCR and he has shown what he could do when he finally got in top equipment. I have a feeling though that someone might "mess" with him because of 'dega, something that he denied by saying that he was just trying to get out of the way like he did the previous restart. 613. Aaron posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:36 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Whoever lumped Dale Jr. in with the likes of Ryan Newman and Kasey Kahne needs to actually watch NASCAR, because they clearly have no idea about anything. 614. Aaron posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Tier 1: Earnhardt Petty Pearson Gordon Ji. Johnson Ju. Johnson Tier 2: D. Waltrip N. Jarrett Yarborough Wallace B. Allison Da. Allison Stewart Thomas T. Flock L. Petty Roberts Tier 3: Isaac Elliott D. Jarrett Martin T. Labonte Harvick Kenseth White Tier 4: Earnhardt Jr. B. Parsons Ku. Busch Ky. Busch Weatherly B. Labonte Lorenzen Hamlin Turner Buddy Baker Rudd Bonnett Richmond Tier 5: Marlin Keselowski Gant Irvan Edwards J. Burton G. Bodine Kulwicki Paschal Logano Yarbrough I didn't rank them within the tiers, I just put them in as I thought of them. 615. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sean, what is your beef with Dale Jr? First you argue that he's a dirty driver because two of his wins ten years ago came from barely touching someone to take the lead. Now you say that he's "as good as Kasey Kahne and Ryan Newman if they were in great equipment their entire career". First, Junior is leagues better than both of those drivers. His performance at Hendrick vs. Kandy performance at Hendrick and Newman at SHR should be proof enough of that. And he has NOT been in elite equipment his entire career, D/TEI was not by any means elite (except at the plate tracks). What he was able to do in those cars was amazing, especially in 2003 and 2004. Nobody else in those cars came close to the amount of success that Junior did, Steve Park might have but his career was ended by injuries and Truex had the breakout 2007 season but besides that he was pretty much a 20th place driver there. And then besides his 2009 and 2010 seasons, which I'll admit were embarrassing, he's been a top ten driver every year at Hendrick. Newman and Kahne, really. I respect your opinion but I think you are criminally underrating Jr. 616. Aaron posted: 11.18.2015 - 1:57 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I'd be interested to see a tier of the worst drivers (who had full seasons and/or were in well-funded rides). Where do you rank Bayne, Danica, Mikey, Kevin Lepage, Dallenbach, Hornish, etc? 617. OldSchoolNascarDude1 posted: 11.18.2015 - 2:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Repaving Atlanta would be a death wish for the track. They better reconsider. 618. murb posted: 11.18.2015 - 2:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Hmm...no love for Bobby Allison?" If we're doing Modern Era tiers (which is what Long Shot did), then definitely Gordon over Allison in Tier 1 for me. Ah, damn it. Just for the hell of it. Modern Era only tiers. I'll rank everyone with at least 10 wins. Tier 1: Petty, Pearson, Earnhardt, Gordon Tier 2: Allison, Yarborough, Waltrip, Johnson Tier 3: Wallace, Stewart, Martin, Elliott, Kenseth, Jarrett, Harvick Tier 4: Terry Labonte, Rudd, Irvan, Gant, Kurt Busch, Kyle Busch, Davey Allison, Richmond Tier 5: Hamlin, Edwards, Jeff Burton, Bonnett, Earnhardt Jr, Bobby Labonte, Bodine, Biffle (I know he's had a really invisible last few years and at this point is totally washed up, but I think him seriously contending for championships in both 2005 and 2008 puts him in this tier and in front of some of his most frequent contemporaries like Newman and such.) The Rest: Keselowski, Kahne, Newman, Logano, Marlin Also, I guess Benny Parsons and Buddy Baker could technically count as Modern Era too. So I don't know. Put them in whichever tiers you want I guess. 619. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) With the incoming repave, losing its 2nd date, and moving it to a weekend with lots of rain, I'm all but certain that they're doing everything they can to get rid of Atlanta. 620. David posted: 11.18.2015 - 2:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If we're doing Modern Era tiers (which is what Long Shot did), then definitely Gordon over Allison in Tier 1 for me." Oh whoops. I missed that completely. 621. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 616- Worst drivers ever in a well-funded ride? David Stremme JJ Yeley Danica Patrick Kevin LePage David Ragan Chad Little Michael Waltrip Casey Mears (oddly enough, he was always horrible with good teams but he's completely overachieved with the #13) Jason Leffler (RIP but he was really bad in the #11) Dario Franchitti (should've been given time in the lower series first like I said on the other page but still his 2008 season was horrendous) 622. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 88@4 Fan I like Jr. too and like you as a poster, but I think Sean is pretty much spot on(except for Dover 2013 when he said he sucks, completely untrue), and he never tried to say that he is a dirty driver, he was just making a point that like pretty much 98% of drivers, he isn't totally spotless. Heck, I'm a Jr. fan and I can name other examples that Sean didn't even mention(like 2009 Richmond when he took Jeff Burton out for no apparent reason), but I won't get into that. Respect your opinion, but I think your heart and emotions are speaking for you(which isn't a bad thing). We're just trying to be objective about their historical standing in the sport. 623. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Btw I just saw that Atlanta Motor Speedways official Twitter has stated that "A repave has been looked into, but at this time, there are not any plans to do so". 624. Ernest T. posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Current probabilities (according to Vegas odds) of winning the 2015 Sprint Cup championship: Harvick: 35.2% Busch: 23.4% Truex: 22.0% Gordon: 19.5% I'm surprised that Gordon isn't ahead of Truex, otherwise things appear as expected. 625. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:26 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hey whatever happened to Kenny by the way. I heard he moved a while back, haven't really heard from him recently. 626. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.18.2015 - 3:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since the 5th grade antics have taken a break (for how long i do not know) Might as well chime in. "With the incoming repave, losing its 2nd date, and moving it to a weekend with lots of rain, I'm all but certain that they're doing everything they can to get rid of Atlanta." Well when you can not put butts in the seats. I like Atlanta it produces good racing. But people do not care about the place. Even as far back as 2000 it had empty seats. It is a great track but people do not care. Replace Atlanta with Road America. Since i know Road America wants a Cup date badly. If Harvick takes the whole show next race you can provide a good debate in regards as too Harvick is a top 10 Cup driver all-time. Harvick is a top-15 Cup driver all-time. Wins 1 or 2 more Cups. He is top 10 (especially if he wins 2 more). For the past 2 years he has been the fastest guy out there. I have no problem with either of the 4 guy winning the Cup at Homestead. But i'll bet on Harvick, Truex, Gordon and Busch. In that order. My championship system is easy: 1 point= 1 win 2nd through 43 get nothing. Want too be championship eligable? Win a race. Want too be Champ? Win the most races. Can miss 6 races but no more then that. Tie in wins, tie breaker is top 5s and then laps lead then poles. Rest of the standings will decided by average finish (for those who do not win) 627. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:01 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 622- Yeah probably, but still, Jr is leagues better than Newman and Kahne. Probably the best other modern day driver to compare to Jr might be Carl Edwards or Denny Hamlin. 628. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @627 Definitely better than Newman, for a while Kahne was better(2009 and 2010 obviously) but Jr of course has been way better since 2011. Not as good as Denny or Carl on a good day, but more consistent than Edwards and post injury Hamlin. 629. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:14 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) Here is my question. With Gordon in the last 4, and Hendrick making no secret how much he wants him to go out on top, does anyone feel like the #4 team will get a "special" engine? 630. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) As for Ryan Newman, honestly outside of his 2003 season and pretty flukey run last year, I don't he could be considered better than a slightly above average driver, and that would be a generous rating. Yes, he drove for Penske during a time when they were in a bit of decline, but you can't say he had terrible equipment for any stretch from 2002-2009, and then from 2009-2013 in the same equipment as 2011 champ Tony Stewart he won a total of 4 races( 2 of which were super lucky) and never reached double digit top 10 in a season. Now in a RCR car he has managed to pretty much sleepwalk his way to 2 chases, but other than Homestead last year hasn't sniffed a victory. Not a bad driver, but certainly nothing special even by today's standards. 631. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:24 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) @629, That would be very ironic, after the way Rick has put Jeff on the back burner for many years now. 632. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:33 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) * I should say Newman never reached double digit top FIVES from 2009-2013, not top tens. 633. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:34 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you mean his Phoenix win, I don't think that was lucky, he had to earn that one by passing Jeff Gordon on a late restart. Martinsville though... 634. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.18.2015 - 4:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) 1995 Subaru I know we'll never be friends but I just want to apologize for some immature & childish comments I made towards you. 635. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 5:57 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) @629 If Rick truly wanted Gordon to win, he would have given him Knaus. No offense to Gustafson, but remember how Gordon dominated the Homestead race last year and they made the horrible call to pit at the very end? 636. Eric posted: 11.18.2015 - 6:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I wonder when Atlanta gets a repaving, will it turn into a restrictor plate race? My question goes down to the fact Atlanta earlier this year the pole sitter was over 194 MPH despite the age of the surface. I am guessing that would cause the cars go 10 MPH faster based on what happened to Michigan. That in return would mean Atlanta would see speeds over 204 MPH for qualifying despite a tapered spacer for the cup series once the track gets repaved. The speeds of the cars going over 200 MPH is a big deal since NASCAR gave the cup cars tapered spaces due to the speeds Michigan had from 2012 to 2014 after the repaving. 637. Sean posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "These debates about drivers and eras are pretty cool and fun, however, I really don't get some of the love that Ernie Irvan gets. I'm not trying to be mean here, but the guy was a menace to racing. He about killed Neil Bonnett running several laps down to the leader at Darlington in 1990. He about killed Dale Earnhardt at Talladega in '96. He about killed himself on a couple of occasions. He was winning the All-Star race in 1994 and went through the grass as the leader through the dog leg and wiped himself out of contention. He gift wrapped Davey Allison a Daytona 500 by taking out most of the leaders on a stupid move midway through the race. He overcorrected a flat tire at Atlanta and ruined Davey Allison's championship hopes in '92." If I recall correctly, Morgan-McClure actually TOLD him to go fight for his laps back even though he was ten laps down. Yes, he caused three dumb, notorious wrecks that led to Neil Bonnett getting amnesia, Kyle Petty breaking a leg, and Dale Earnhardt cracking his sternum. However, I don't believe any of those were intentional. He drove too wildly, mostly in the #4 when he had to overdrive in order to be able to compete for wins. In the #28 he did not have to overdrive in order to fight for wins regularly, so I think he really did clean up his act there before his 1994 Michigan crash, although he wasn't completely the same driver after his return and then he started overdriving again. He was never really patient enough except that one year in the #28 before his injury, which meant his worst moments were rather notorious but the driving style also allowed him to win races others would not have won in that car (the #4 was barely competitive outside plate tracks without him except for Sterling Marlin in '95-'96). Weren't at least two of the three incidents that ultimately injured him due to blown tires? He didn't necessarily cause that at all. Most top drivers have caused restrictor plate multi-car pileups. Most drivers have crashed while trying to overcorrect a spin. I think you're calling him dangerous just because some of the crashes he caused resulted in injury, which really is just poor luck. Do you blame Sage Karam or killing Justin Wilson even though it was just an unfortunate side effect far behind Karam on the track (as the Neil Bonnett Darlington wreck was)? I just am shocked you're defending somebody who wrecks people intentionally more (is it suddenly more acceptable to wreck people just because the SAFER and HANS make it less likely for injuries to result from crashes? "By the way, someone brought up Penske from the 90's and RCR from 2002-present being the same... umm, no. Penske overwhelmingly had more during each respective time period." '93 and '94 Penske was certainly better, but Robin Pemberton-era Penske had I think about the same strength of equipment as post-Earnhardt RCR. "Again, this argument is silly because it's talking purely about the historical standing of a track. Elevating the importance of tracks because we've somehow decided they're "legendary" makes no sense." Bobby Allison never won at Martinsville. Dale Earnhardt never won at Riverside or Watkins Glen. Jimmie Johnson never won at Watkins Glen. Are they suddenly not legends? No. And I don't think Martinsville and Watkins Glen are 'minor races'. Minor races would be like Chicagoland, Kansas, etc... "And Terry Labonte already has two championships, so he must be better than all of them, right?" Exactly. "He seems to be one heck of an underrated driver around here." Agreed. I'd put him fourth after Pearson/Petty/Earnhardt. "When Rusty raced you had 8-10 drivers that could win on the circuit, Harvick didn't have the equipment that Rusty had and had to go up against 10-15 guys that could win on the circuit. I'll give Rusty some credit that he didn't have as many races as Harvick has got to run (honestly had Dale Sr. had 36 races a year during his prime he probably would have won 95-100 races)." I do think the early 2000s was the peak for competitive drivers and both Wallace/Harvick were there and both were somewhat consistent but hardly winning. I'd take Harvick from 2001-03, but only by a little, and that was Wallace when he was far from his prime. Harvick only really took off in 2010 when competitive depth started plummeting (Rusty Wallace had a 4-win season in 2000 when the field was much deeper), and exploded the last two years in an era when there really aren't many more competitive drivers than in the early '90s, and probably fewer. Giving Earnhardt 36 race seasons from 1979-1995 would be an additional 110 starts or something like that, and he didn't have a winning percentage anywhere near 20%, so I would guess he'd end up with more like 90 wins, but you do have a point. 638. Sean posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:19 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Sean, what is your beef with Dale Jr?" I don't have a personal beef with them. I don't dislike him. My evaluations of drivers have little to do with what I think of them as people. People don't get that (I rate Davey Allison way lower than most other fans do, but I have reasons for that and I don't hate him at all...I like him more than almost any champion!) Unfortunately, I do think I probably have a bias against second generation drivers in general but I think what it really is is a bias against drivers who get into top ten equipment from day one, but that pretty much applies to every star who broke through since Stewart, so I agree that's unfair. I also think it's my inability to take post-2000 restrictor plate races seriously considering what a crapshoot most plate races are now, and his long winless streaks outside the plate tracks. If I could believe in the value of modern plate racing, I certainly wouldn't say this. "Now you say that he's "as good as Kasey Kahne and Ryan Newman if they were in great equipment their entire career". First, Junior is leagues better than both of those drivers. His performance at Hendrick vs. Kandy performance at Hendrick and Newman at SHR should be proof enough of that." You're right, Newman was a lowblow. I'm not impressed by his 2003 pit strategy wins and besides that his career more resembles a Ken Schrader or Morgan Shepherd or somebody like that who can pop in the top ten in points not infrequently and sometimes score a lot of top tens but not much more. I think it's that in Newman's heyday (2002-04) I was more impressed with him because I felt the DEI cars were better than the Penske cars (and given Michael Waltrip finishing 15th in points back-to-back years and being in the top ten most of '03, I think the DEI cars were actually some of the best out there...it wasn't just on the plate tracks, at least in '02-'04...after '04 DEI tanked and Junior and Newman were more or less getting similar results, but despite that awful '09-'10 which I think are still really fresh in my mind (because I'm still waiting for him to contend for non-restrictor plate races in a big way since then, which he really hasn't done), but you're definitely right he outperformed when they were at Hendrick together. As for Kahne, pretty much everybody on this site was rating him over Junior before he got to Hendrick. He is awful this year but I figure his '14-'15 might be some random inexplicable slump like Junior's '09-'10 and then he'll come back. But I agree Junior over Kahne too, since he is more diverse (Kahne is mostly a cookie-cutter specialist even though he has won on other kinds of tracks.) I should have just said that I do think they're in the same tier. But I think Junior, B. Labonte, J. Burton are closer to the top of it while Kahne, Newman, Marlin are closer to the bottom of it. "he has NOT been in elite equipment his entire career, D/TEI was not by any means elite (except at the plate tracks). What he was able to do in those cars was amazing, especially in 2003 and 2004. Nobody else in those cars came close to the amount of success that Junior did, Steve Park might have but his career was ended by injuries and Truex had the breakout 2007 season but besides that he was pretty much a 20th place driver there." Okay, I'll grant that DEI was not elite in '00 and '05-'07 but I think '01-'04 they were. Park was a weekly threat just like Junior was. I just saw him as a good, not great driver (except on plate tracks where he is great, but like I said, I have a lot of trouble taking this era of plate racing seriously) with REALLY BAD TEAMMATES. Truex beat Junior handily in '07 and I didn't really take him seriously at all until this year, so... I agree on review that I am underrating him. I want to compare him to people like B. Labonte and J. Burton and Newman who had like four year power runs followed by only handfuls of wins here and there because I'm largely ignoring Junior's plate wins, which is probably wrong, but can you understand where this is coming from? When so many people here go on and on about the value of marquee race wins when they are increasingly more and more of a crapshoot, I find myself taking a too belligerent position on the other side which causes me to undervalue them. If you ignore Junior's plate wins, he does not have a hell of a lot of wins post-'04 and really does resemble a more consistent Newman/Kahne but I probably would have said even then he was higher on that tier. "We're just trying to be objective about their historical standing in the sport." I admit one could argue I am one of the *least* objective since I tend to focus on peak season performance rather than steady performance over a career, and despite being a stats major, I may look "beyond the numbers" too much, probably way causing me to way overrate the likes of Irvan, Gant, Richmond over guys who never had those kind of knockout seasons or did so less often like the Labontes, J. Burton, Junior... However, I do believe I am following what baseball sabermetricians are doing by emphasizing peak performance over 'career compiling', although I am perhaps too extreme in preferring short-term dominance over long-term consistency. I don't hate Junior at all, but I guess it's a combination of his instantly getting a good ride from day one in an era where most recent rookies except Gordon and Stewart hadn't, watching non-champions since in my opinion eclipse him (Kyle, Hamlin, Edwards, and Logano about 2 years from now), really not taking modern plate races seriously when M. Waltrip, Bayne, Ragan, etc... can win them, and having a personal (probably irrational) aversion to drivers who are more consistent than dominant, even though I understand that considering the biases of NASCAR's points system, that is exactly what he should be doing, and 2002-2004 certainly proved he could be dominant, and against deeper fields also. You're right, Bobby Labonte/Jeff Burton would be better comparisons for Junior I think objectively, even if I think plate racing in Junior's era is an absolute joke for the most part. I think those drivers are only a half step over Kahne (who may recover from his slump like Junior did from his), probably another half step over Newman. That was likely one of the dumber things I said on here. When you make as many arguments as I do, it's inevitable you're gonna fail hard at some of them, but I feel I really blew my entire reputation here on that, but I still firmly stand with the other argument (Irvan was no more of a menace than any other aggressive driver, but he was just unlucky that the crashes he caused led to injuries while other drivers' crashes didn't). Bear in mind that we all have biases though. Now I've admitted mine. "I'm surprised that Gordon isn't ahead of Truex, otherwise things appear as expected." Truex is clearly faster on the intermediates this year. "1 point= 1 win 2nd through 43 get nothing." That gives Newman and Kahne titles. No thanks. I'd still take it over the chase, but I think consistency should matter somewhat (I wouldn't say the driver with the most wins should always win the title) but it matters too much now. "@627 Definitely better than Newman, for a while Kahne was better(2009 and 2010 obviously) but Jr of course has been way better since 2011. Not as good as Denny or Carl on a good day, but more consistent than Edwards and post injury Hamlin." I rate Hamlin much better historically, but most of that comes down to (again) higher peak performance (8 win season) and me rating short track wins MUCH MORE than I weight plate wins. Edwards I definitely see as the least of the four JGR drivers (lowest cumulative races led by far and too much cookie-cutter dominance) but I'll still go for him over Junior due to versatility (more impressed with Edwards on short tracks and road courses). But I'd put Hamlin/Edwards above B. Labonte/J. Burton already so... I admit that pretty recently, Junior, Hamlin, and Edwards have all kind of run the same, and I do think Junior had the best season of those three this year, regardless of what the chase produces, especially considering JGR was faster than HMS this year. I DO see why some people on other sites (and a few here) accuse me of shooting off my mouth too much and not knowing what I'm talking about. 99 good arguments can be ruined by one weak one, since it's these that people remember. I still do think it's basically more because I think almost everybody else (still) overvalues marquee race wins and plate wins and I probably went way too far in the opposite direction overreacting to that argument. 639. David posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "I still do think it's basically more because I think almost everybody else (still) overvalues marquee race wins and plate wins and I probably went way too far in the opposite direction overreacting to that argument." I do that sort of thing all the time, so you're not alone. As for marquee wins, I've mellowed on giving those any more value than the other events. In fact, I've mellowed on a lot of opinions I held since the last time I was a regular around here. For example, I no longer put Jeff Gordon on a pedestal by thinking he's somehow more virtuous or clean than the other drivers, and that's okay. The opposite has happened with Jimmie Johnson. I used to despise his presence in Victory Lane, whereas now I actually sided with him in the late-race battle at Texas last week. Generally I don't get worked up about the unfairness in NASCAR, because that's a part of everything in life and has been since the dawn of time. So I now enjoy what I can about NASCAR without complaining. Taking some time off will do that to you. Musing complete. 640. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I can definitely see where you're coming from there Sean. And sorry if I came across as overly argumentative by the way, just so you know I think you're probably one of the most intelligent people here when it comes to debating different drivers and the sort. However, I still stand by my claim that DEI was never elite, okay maybe in 2003, but thats the best they ever got, and they were never anywhere near as good as Hendrick. "I'm still waiting for him to contend for non-restrictor plate races in a big way since then, which he really hasn't done." I beg to differ. Since 2012 he has been a consistent top ten driver, really a top five driver every year. Especially in 2014. While he may not be dominating non-restrictor plate races and leading hundreds of laps the way he was at DEI, he's usually a top five driver more often than not. Take Sunday at Phoenix for example. Even though the win was a fluke, he ran second or third the whole race. 641. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Tier 2: Allison, Yarborough, Waltrip, Johnson" It's a shame Cale doesn't get more love. I've been guilty of not giving him enough love myself. I believe Nascar has low/black balled him over the years because of him backing the company TRAC who tried to start a series in the late 90's and got Cale to be a public representative for them. I'm sure if he felt like he would have been penalized for not racing more full seasons he may have raced more, but at the time he didn't care and his team didn't care and he didn't always race full seasons except with Junior. He only raced 7 full seasons out of the 31 years he ran and won three championships. He has the best overall average finish for a modern era champion of 4.5 (1977) and that year he won 9 races and had 27 top 10's out of 30 races. The guy won just under 15% of his races 83/560. I know when he raced he was one of the favorites to win week in and week out and didn't have to deal with as tough competition week in and week out like drivers have over the last 25 years, but he went up against Petty, Pearson, Allison, Waltrip, Baker, and had an unforeseen and memorable duel with a young Dale Earnhardt in 1980. Those are the biggest of names and I believe he could easily be a low end tier 1 all-time driver. Had him and Pearson both raced more they would have won more plain and simple and Richard Petty wouldn't have 200 wins. 642. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 7:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Surprised nobody has mentioned it yet, but Sunday will be the final race for MWR. 643. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Here is my question. With Gordon in the last 4, and Hendrick making no secret how much he wants him to go out on top, does anyone feel like the #4 team will get a "special" engine?" "Current probabilities (according to Vegas odds) of winning the 2015 Sprint Cup championship: Harvick: 35.2% Busch: 23.4% Truex: 22.0% Gordon: 19.5% I'm surprised that Gordon isn't ahead of Truex, otherwise things appear as expected." On Sportsbook Harvick is 7:5 $10 bet gets you $14 return, Busch is 11:4 $10 bet is $27.50 return, Truex is 3:1 $10 bet gets you $30 return, and Gordon is 7:2 $10 bet gets you $35 return. I actually laid $10 down on Harvick before the Dover race and he was 14/1 odds then to win championship. I may lay down some on Gordon because I feel like those are pretty good odds... he had the car to beat last year and has won there before. Plus I predicted him to win Martinsville and as DSFF/JG said that the fix might be in for him. More than likely though Harvick already had the engine he was going to use for this race before the final 4 was finalized. 644. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.18.2015 - 8:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No need to apologize Sean, you haven't said anything that was blatantly wrong, and your opinion is worth as much as anyone else. I will admit I didn't care for that 2013 Dover comment, but that's nothing, and you haven't said anything that I think anyone could take any offense to. You have way more knowledge than about 99.8 percent of people do about racing, those guys you were referring to who said you didn't know what are talking about were asinine. Didn't mean to sound like a mother here, but that's the truth. I agree with your point about weighing dominance over consistency, to me that is what defines true greatness. I agree as well about the nature of plate racing today, it does kind of devalue things. That doesn't mean I won't celebrate when Jr. wins a plate race, but that's just emotion. But I'm aware those don't really carry any historical value. As far as Harvick, I agree that Dale Jarret is a more valid comparison that Terry Labonte(despite some good points by Jason) Kevin is having his "dominant" period later in his career, like Jarret had(albeit for pretty limited time), while Labonte never had such a stretch. 645. 1995 Subaru WRX STi posted: 11.18.2015 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "That gives Newman and Kahne titles. No thanks. I'd still take it over the chase, but I think consistency should matter somewhat (I wouldn't say the driver with the most wins should always win the title) but it matters too much now." I'd buy Newmans 2003 more then Kaseys 2006. Newman year was better stats wise and he lead more then 100 laps 4 times. Kasey did it 3 times in 2006. Newman also lead for 1000 laps in 2003. Fuel mileage or not a win is a win. Most wins would also give Gordon the 1996 and 1999 titles. 1996 Gordon got royal hosed by the Latford system. 1999 is debatable. Also give Hamlin the 2010 title. (which he should have won anyway if he and Mike Ford didn't throw it away) 646. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 8:59 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If I recall correctly, Morgan-McClure actually TOLD him to go fight for his laps back even though he was ten laps down. Yes, he caused three dumb, notorious wrecks that led to Neil Bonnett getting amnesia, Kyle Petty breaking a leg, and Dale Earnhardt cracking his sternum. However, I don't believe any of those were intentional. He drove too wildly, mostly in the #4 when he had to overdrive in order to be able to compete for wins. In the #28 he did not have to overdrive in order to fight for wins regularly, so I think he really did clean up his act there before his 1994 Michigan crash, although he wasn't completely the same driver after his return and then he started overdriving again. He was never really patient enough except that one year in the #28 before his injury, which meant his worst moments were rather notorious but the driving style also allowed him to win races others would not have won in that car (the #4 was barely competitive outside plate tracks without him except for Sterling Marlin in '95-'96). Weren't at least two of the three incidents that ultimately injured him due to blown tires? He didn't necessarily cause that at all. Most top drivers have caused restrictor plate multi-car pileups. Most drivers have crashed while trying to overcorrect a spin. I think you're calling him dangerous just because some of the crashes he caused resulted in injury, which really is just poor luck. Do you blame Sage Karam or killing Justin Wilson even though it was just an unfortunate side effect far behind Karam on the track (as the Neil Bonnett Darlington wreck was)? I just am shocked you're defending somebody who wrecks people intentionally more (is it suddenly more acceptable to wreck people just because the SAFER and HANS make it less likely for injuries to result from crashes?" If someone tells you to jump off a bridge are you going to do it? There was no excuse for the Bonnett crash. He was racing hard with Schrader who was the leader for about 2 laps. In his interview afterwards he claimed responsibility for it, but acted like it was ok. I honestly don't think he realized what was going on and didn't appear like it mattered. I remember Marlin wanting to kill Irvan after that race and after the one he caused Dale to almost die at 'dega in '96. If he drove "too wildly" then it was intentional. He didn't have enough sense a lot of the time and didn't use good judgment. He was a menace and many drivers were afraid to race around him. He put his car in places that it had no place being in and about killed himself and other because of it. Even before the '92 500 he said he was going to be a little more conservative... yeah ok. A better driver wouldn't have overcorrected like he did at the Atlanta race. The 1992 season is the only year he ever played a major factor in the championship standings and that is because of the wrecks that he had or caused that year. 4 of his 7 wins in the #4 were at plate tracks. There were other crashes that he caused and was in that didn't result in serious injury. I don't see how people can take up for him. I know you post a lot and some your posts I agree with and have respect for, but I can't see it with Ernie. Karam was by himself out front when he wrecked (much like Ernie in '94 All-Star race). Go type in Ernie Irvan in youtube search and all you see is a list of crash, crash, wreck, crash, crash, wreck, wreck, crash. And then you see people say after each one say... "Swervin Irvan at it again" 647. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "The 1992 Season is the only season he ever played a major factor in the championship standings" 1994? Where he and Earnhardt were trading the points lead all season until his crash? 648. Anonymous posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:24 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "If Rick truly wanted Gordon to win, he would have given him Knaus. No offense to Gustafson, but remember how Gordon dominated the Homestead race last year and they made the horrible call to pit at the very end?" I've said this before on this site, but I have no idea who started the myth that Chad Knaus is some sort of wizard strategist. Chad has costed Jimmie numerous races throughout the years for various reasons, such as leaving him out on the track with the same left side tires for over 100 laps, having him pit under caution from the lead (or close to it) near the end of the race in situations where pitting resulted in an insurmountable loss of track position, and gambling on fuel strategy and losing with the fastest car on the track (when NOT gambling would have likely won the race). 649. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "93 and '94 Penske was certainly better, but Robin Pemberton-era Penske had I think about the same strength of equipment as post-Earnhardt RCR. No way. RCR has been terrible and how in the world Harvick won 23 races with them is mind-boggling. Hendrick, JGR, and Roush dominated during that time period and he still won 23 races with them. Many of them he shouldn't have won and got the most out of his car and himself. RCR has not won a race since he left. "Again, this argument is silly because it's talking purely about the historical standing of a track. Elevating the importance of tracks because we've somehow decided they're "legendary" makes no sense." Bobby Allison never won at Martinsville. Dale Earnhardt never won at Riverside or Watkins Glen. Jimmie Johnson never won at Watkins Glen. Are they suddenly not legends? No. And I don't think Martinsville and Watkins Glen are 'minor races'. Minor races would be like Chicagoland, Kansas, etc... We're talking about Darlington here. The iconic track that is a true test of a driver. Rusty is 0fer. I didn't say Rusty wasn't great, I'm just making my case for Harvick being ahead of him all time. His resume' is better in regards to big wins and with the equipment he has had compared to Rusty's. Harvick has easily been the best driver since he got in top equipment, something I predicted would happen if he ever got the chance because of his success that he had with a middle of the road team that has been pretty much garbage for the most part for the last 10 years, except for 2010. Harvick kept RCR going. "And Terry Labonte already has two championships, so he must be better than all of them, right? Exactly." I still give Harvick the nod because of him being more versatile than Terry. "When Rusty raced you had 8-10 drivers that could win on the circuit, Harvick didn't have the equipment that Rusty had and had to go up against 10-15 guys that could win on the circuit. I'll give Rusty some credit that he didn't have as many races as Harvick has got to run (honestly had Dale Sr. had 36 races a year during his prime he probably would have won 95-100 races)." I do think the early 2000s was the peak for competitive drivers and both Wallace/Harvick were there and both were somewhat consistent but hardly winning. I'd take Harvick from 2001-03, but only by a little, and that was Wallace when he was far from his prime. Harvick only really took off in 2010 when competitive depth started plummeting (Rusty Wallace had a 4-win season in 2000 when the field was much deeper), and exploded the last two years in an era when there really aren't many more competitive drivers than in the early '90s, and probably fewer. Again, Rusty had better equipment. RCR has been garbage and Harvick kept them going. Every now and then Burton and Bowyer did well, but Harvick kept them going for 10 years. "Giving Earnhardt 36 race seasons from 1979-1995 would be an additional 110 starts or something like that, and he didn't have a winning percentage anywhere near 20%, so I would guess he'd end up with more like 90 wins, but you do have a point." I'd say 95 giving him the benefit of any doubt. However, during his prime what I consider 1985-1995 (and that's not counting his title year with 5 wins in 1980, and he still raced well from 1996-2000, he didn't in just win as much and in large part that was because of the '96 dega crash that someone caused), he won 57 races out of 323 races for a winning percentage of just under 18% and included the "bad" 1992 year. 650. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:31 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Irvan didn't try to kill Earnhardt at Talladega it was a product of plate racing as he simply drifted up into Marlin to trigger the crash 651. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:33 pm Rate this comment: (4) (0) This "Ernie Irvan's is a menace" garage is truly ridiculous. The '96 Dega wreck, that injured my boy, was just a product of restrictor plate racing. They get slowed down to "only" 190-195 mph and you have to side draft. Errors are gonna happen and they are gonna hurt. Everyone has screwed up. For example: speaking of Earnhardt, Ernie and side drafting, here is an obscure one. The 1994 Fall Michigan race. With Ernie in a hospital clinging to life by a thread, Dale Earnhardt tried to side draft Todd Bodine on the backstretch, misjudges, and turns Todd straight into the wall, crashes himself and a few others. Was Dale a menace to racing? Probably a few times (Richmond '86). If that wreck hadn't injured Dale it would have been long forgotten. Just like the Darlington '90 wreck. It gave Neil amnesia. I loved Neil to death, but the fact is he was very injury prone and had already suffered numerous head injuries. We didn't pay special attention to concussions and repeated head injures back then, and really didn't truly grasp how serious they were until that startling discovery in June 2007 in the Atlanta suberbs. So no, Ernie was not a menace or even overly dangerous. It's just the wrecks he caused had dire consequences. Through nobody's fault. 652. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:39 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "1994? Where he and Earnhardt were trading the points lead all season until his crash? " I thought someone may mention that, but I meant by the whole season as playing a factor. I know he might have played a factor if not for the crash. I don't care too much for people automatically thinking that Ernie would have won the title that year without having the crash at Michigan. Although he was having his best year, he was behind Dale in the points at the time and Dale had a better overall average finish and that's even with him pulling out of the Phoenix race early after already clinching the week before at Rockingham. 653. Sean posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:56 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) One clarification: "Chew on these numbers... Harvick, Elliott, and Wallace each have one championship a piece. Only one of them can make it two Sunday. Keep chewing." And Terry Labonte already has two championships, so he must be better than all of them, right? The Long Shot was being sarcastic, and my 'Exactly' was agreeing with his sarcasm, not agreeing with the statement. "No way. RCR has been terrible and how in the world Harvick won 23 races with them is mind-boggling. Hendrick, JGR, and Roush dominated during that time period and he still won 23 races with them. Many of them he shouldn't have won and got the most out of his car and himself. RCR has not won a race since he left." Burton improved when he left Roush and went to Childress (or at least a year or two later), and that was in a period when Roush was dominating. Bowyer only had two years comparable to his RCR years since, MWR 2012 (when the quality of the equipment made all the drivers look better than they were, except maybe for Truex, now considering this season) and 2013 (when they still had the good setups from '12). While I'm not saying Childress was as good as Hendrick, Roush, or Gibbs in the Harvick period, I also don't think Penske was as good as those teams + Yates in the late '90s. They were both second-tier teams capable of being outside championship contenders with elite drivers but would usually fall short. 654. Sean posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, Penske and Gibbs were about equal actually before Tony Stewart arrived there, so really it is the same. It's just that the elite three were Hendrick/Roush/Yates up vs. Rusty in the late '90s as opposed to Hendrick/Roush/Gibbs vs. Childress in the Harvick years. I think there's a good case for Penske in 4th in the late '90s and Childress in 4th in the mid-2000s. If the team was that bad, Bowyer wouldn't have been getting top five points finishes (when he hasn't done that much since) and Burton would have continued to look as bad as he did in his latter Roush years, which he didn't. 655. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.18.2015 - 9:59 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) As for Dale's career, you have to realize that he NEVER had the best engines. Only in the first half of '87 was he ON PAR with the engines of Ernie Elliott and Robert Yates. That is why he only had 2 career wins apiece at Michigan and Pocono. With equal power in June '87 he dominated Bill, Davey, and those small sleek Thunderbirds at Pocono and Michigan in his shoebox Monte Carlo. That was even a central theme in his 1980 championship run. There were so many great engine builders in Dale's career, and he never drove for one. You had Waddell, Robert Yates, Harold Elliott, Randy Dorton, Ernie Elliott, Jack Roush, Runt Pittman, and Penske's engine guy (his name escapes me, but Rusty cleaned up at Pocono and Michigan from '91-'00). Dale had Lou LaRusa, a guy who went to the 26 team and built engines that were so bad they drove Larry Mac away, and Spenny Clendenin (who?). Give Dale a career with top motors, or like today when there are only three engine producers (Hendrick, Roush/Yates, and TRD) and he wins over 100 races and 10-12 titles. Once they restricted the engines at Daytona/Dega, putting him on even ground, he went from having only 2 wins at Dega from '79-'87 to the dominant force, winning 8 times from '90-'00 and only his horrendous Daytona 500 luck keeping him from having at least 4 more wins. So what happens if he were on equal horsepower ground his whole career? And what about late in his career when other new horsepower tracks showed up (Indy, Cali, Vegas). And this does not even get into the wasted years from '81-'85 trying to either settle into a permanent ride or build up a team. If he had Gordon's career, it would be beyond staggering. 656. Sean posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:00 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Harvick WAS the glue holding RCR together up until a few years ago, like you could say Kenseth and Edwards were at Roush, and the teams couldn't survive without them. Penske managed to survive without Rusty because he managed to attract a series of young talents while Childress was focused on overrated drivers, ride-buyers, and grandchildren. 657. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:10 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "More impressed with Edwards on short tracks and road courses" Road courses, yeah, because even Jocko Flocko could beat Dale Jr. on a road course (although he's impressed me at Sonoma lately, Junior that is, not Jocko). But short tracks? Carl's good at Bristol, but horrible at Martinsville and mediocre at Richmond. Junior is good at all three of those tracks, I think he's a much better short track racer than Carl. Not as good as Denny though, I agree there. 658. murb posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "You're right, Bobby Labonte/Jeff Burton would be better comparisons for Junior I think objectively" Yeah, I think Burton's probably the best one to compare him to. Versatility wise they're very similar (I think Burton was definitely better at short tracks and off kilter places like Darlington/Loudon/Phoenix, but on everything else I don't see much difference between them), and even their later careers have somewhat reflected each other (Burton had his 2006-2010-ish resurgence after his down final years at Roush, and then Jr has had a nice run from 2012-present after his horrendous 2009-2011). 659. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "This "Ernie Irvan's is a menace" garage is truly ridiculous. The '96 Dega wreck, that injured my boy, was just a product of restrictor plate racing. They get slowed down to "only" 190-195 mph and you have to side draft. Errors are gonna happen and they are gonna hurt. Everyone has screwed up. Go tell that to Sterling Marlin. He threw sunglasses in his direction in the garage at Indy the following week. Tbh, Marlin was taken out of the '90 Darlington crash, '92 500, and '96 dega race. So I could see his frustrations. "Was Dale a menace to racing? Probably a few times (Richmond '86)." I feel like he was trying to make a point with Darrell and his team because Darrell always made fun of the lack of education Dale and his team had. There more to that race that met the eye in that Earnhardt won 3 times the races Darrell did after that incident, including 6 championships to Darrell's 0. If that wreck hadn't injured Dale it would have been long forgotten. Just like the Darlington '90 wreck. It gave Neil amnesia. I loved Neil to death, but the fact is he was very injury prone and had already suffered numerous head injuries. Injury prone? C'mon. Had the stupidity not happened, the amnesia wouldn't have. I think many of the drivers remember the Talladega incident well, even before Earnhardt's injury was revealed. Here is a article from the Orlando Sentinel after the wreck. I'll post the site and copy the article. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1996-08-02/sports/9608011066_1_irvan-earnhardt-marlin This is why fans love NASCAR. As drivers settled into Gasoline Alley this week, it seemed only a matter of time before blame was doled out regarding Dale Earnhardt's grinding wreck on Sunday at Talladega, Ala. Television replays showed Ernie Irvan's right front end tapped Sterling Marlin's left rear, sending Marlin into Earnhardt. Earnhardt isn't assigning blame by name. Marlin is. He made a point of visiting Irvan's garage Wednesday and threw a pair of eyeglasses in Irvan's direction - an obvious reference to Irvan's damaged eye, injured in a near-fatal 1994 crash. Irvan quickly threw the glasses back. Neither would comment on the incident Thursday, but Earnhardt shed light on the chain reaction when he met the media Wednesday. ''The last glance I saw of the 28 (Irvan), he was on the inside of my left rear,'' Earnhardt said. ''Then the car turned abruptly to the right. I knew the 4 car (Marlin) was the only possible answer there. ''Why, I don't know. I wouldn't think he would do it on purpose. . . . Something happened to him for him to do what happened. There's no way he would turn . . . at that point without some reason.'' Was Irvan the reason? ''No comment,'' Earnhardt said. "So no, Ernie was not a menace or even overly dangerous. It's just the wrecks he caused had dire consequences. Through nobody's fault." Try telling that to the drivers that wanted him suspended and was afraid to race around him. I'm really surprised about the support and backing Ernie Irvan gets. Go to youtube and look up his notorious crashes and the majority of people say "Swervin Irvan at it again". He was his own worst enemy and honestly he couldn't get out of Nascar fast enough. 660. Benjamin LordLowe posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:23 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) There was a nearly identical wreck about nearly 2 years later at the same race track involving Earnhardt as Ward Burton like Ernie Irvan drifted up into Bill Elliot and sent both Elliott and Earnhardt into the wall as fire from Elliott's car caused some pretty severe burns to Earnhardt's face. Anyways you don't hear people attacking Ward for that crash or anyone calling him Swervin Ward Burton. 661. murb posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Carl's good at Bristol, but horrible at Martinsville and mediocre at Richmond." He looked a lot better at Martinsville this year now that he's with JGR, so I expect we'll see him improve there even more as time goes on. And he's always been more solid than not at Richmond, and probably would have ended up sweeping there in 2013 if Nascar wouldn't have screwed him over with a bogus restart penalty in the Spring race. But yeah, I would agree that Jr is a better short tracker than Carl. 662. murb posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:27 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Wait, never mind. That was the Spring 2012 race where Carl got screwed on the restart. Still, he did win the Fall 2013 race there (SpinGate), and probably should have won that 2012 one, so he's always been pretty good there. 663. 88&4Fan posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^I was just about to comment that. While he probably should've won the 2012 spring race, he also shouldn't have won the 2013 fall race because he jumped the restart (kind of ironic how that works out). But that finish was so f*cked up to begin with that I really couldn't care less about who won it. 664. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:40 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "As for Dale's career, you have to realize that he NEVER had the best engines. Only in the first half of '87 was he ON PAR with the engines of Ernie Elliott and Robert Yates. That is why he only had 2 career wins apiece at Michigan and Pocono. With equal power in June '87 he dominated Bill, Davey, and those small sleek Thunderbirds at Pocono and Michigan in his shoebox Monte Carlo. That was even a central theme in his 1980 championship run. There were so many great engine builders in Dale's career, and he never drove for one. You had Waddell, Robert Yates, Harold Elliott, Randy Dorton, Ernie Elliott, Jack Roush, Runt Pittman, and Penske's engine guy (his name escapes me, but Rusty cleaned up at Pocono and Michigan from '91-'00). Dale had Lou LaRusa, a guy who went to the 26 team and built engines that were so bad they drove Larry Mac away, and Spenny Clendenin (who?). Give Dale a career with top motors, or like today when there are only three engine producers (Hendrick, Roush/Yates, and TRD) and he wins over 100 races and 10-12 titles. Once they restricted the engines at Daytona/Dega, putting him on even ground, he went from having only 2 wins at Dega from '79-'87 to the dominant force, winning 8 times from '90-'00 and only his horrendous Daytona 500 luck keeping him from having at least 4 more wins. So what happens if he were on equal horsepower ground his whole career? And what about late in his career when other new horsepower tracks showed up (Indy, Cali, Vegas). And this does not even get into the wasted years from '81-'85 trying to either settle into a permanent ride or build up a team. If he had Gordon's career, it would be beyond staggering. " I'm glad you posted this. I wish more people got in the trenches of it instead of just looking at numbers or him not winning at those types of tracks. A lot of times he drove aggressively early in his career because he KNEW he was at a disadvantage when it came to horsepower. Honestly he very well could have won 5-10 Daytona 500's if good luck would have went his way. About every year during the 90's except for '92 and '94 he could have won there had circumstances went his way. He definitely would have had a lot more wins. He won some races by true grit. I liked Runt Pittman. I remember Darrell Waltrip sarcastically saying that he built engines for Nigel Mansell, too. In fact at Daytona speedweeks in 1995 people were calling Sterling "Nigel Marlin" because of his engine sounding like an indy car. I believe Rusty's engine builder was named Dave Evans. 665. Ryan W posted: 11.18.2015 - 10:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Anyways you don't hear people attacking Ward for that crash or anyone calling him Swervin Ward Burton." Several Elliott and Earnhardt fans made signs degrading Ward Burton because of what happened. He took out the two most popular drivers at the time. The only difference is, is that W. Burton didn't do it often. 666. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.18.2015 - 11:21 pm Rate this comment: (2) (4) Given what we found out in 2001 about Dale's meticulous detail to the safety, I can say with 95% confidence that Dale wouldn't have got hurt in that wreck if he wasn't using seats and seat belts from the 1950s. There is one person responsible for Dale's getting injured in that wreck and one person only: Dale Earnhardt. And he is my favorite athlete ever. As for Darlington, he bumped Schrader and turned him. It's not like he just plowed through the whole field like Harvick this year at Dega. Ernie was a great driver that made the sport better. He drove so hard, his driving alone was worth the price of admission. He was like Dale, Tim, Junior Johnson, and Fireball. Given the current climate of lame racing and lame race car wheel holders, wouldn't the Early 90s Ernie Irvan be a very welcome addition? If you answered no, I suggest only watching Formula 1. 667. The Long Shot posted: 11.18.2015 - 11:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "We're talking about Darlington here. The iconic track that is a true test of a driver. Rusty is 0fer. I didn't say Rusty wasn't great, I'm just making my case for Harvick being ahead of him all time. His resume' is better in regards to big wins and with the equipment he has had compared to Rusty's." Again, though, what characterizes a "big" win? Yes, Darlington is one of the toughest tracks to drive in addition to its long history, but could you not say that about short tracks like the aforementioned Martinsville, Richmond and even Bristol? Tracks that Wallace OBLITERATES Harvick at historically? Sorry, I'm really not trying to take shots at you here. You're obviously not the only one that believes this. I just have never quite understood this logic. The "historical" factor to these tracks might add a nice little touch to a driver's resume, but nothing that should impact his/her all-time standing. 668. racefangurl posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) 661, I think Jr.'s a Bristol winner (not sure how many, though). Carl Edwards (I looked it up) is a two-time winner there. 669. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Man, so many things I want to respond to. First, Ernie Irvan was not a "menace" on the track. A menace would be someone who INTENTIONALLY wants to cause harm, injury, or death. Ernie was an aggressive driver, and the wreck at Dega in '96 was simply the product of restrictor plate racing, he didn't mean to do it, but since Irvan has a bad reputation, he automatically gets slammed for it. Meanwhile, if someone like Terry Labonte did it, it would be brushed off as a racing deal. Saying that Ernie is a menace for that crash is like saying the inside wall at Daytona is a menace for injuring Kyle Busch. In terms of the points system, they shouldn't reward consistency or dominance. They should reward being consistently dominant. Kyle Busch is dominate but not consistent, and Dale Jr. is consistent but not dominant. Meanwhile, drivers like Gordon and Earhardt were dominant and consistent and that's why they both have multiple championships. "1996 Gordon got royal hosed by the Latford system." Even as a biased Gordon fan, I disagree. While Terry had 2 wins to Gordon's 10, they each had the same amount of top 5's and top 10's and Gordon had worse finishes down the stretch. Terry deserved it. "horrible at Martinsville" Correction, Roush is horrible at Martinsville. They always have been, and for proof you can watch Greg Vickers' magnificent driving display at the most recent Martinsville race. Now that's he's with JGR, I think Edwards will be better there. "As for Dale's career, you have to realize that he NEVER had the best engines." I agree. Yates, Elliott, Hendrick, etc. for the most part had them beat. But I've always wondered, the only flaw in Earnhardt's career is road courses. (Like father, like son). He had 1 win (Sonoma 1995) where he led a grand total of two laps and nothing else. Why was he not that great at them? And I would make a group of drivers currently that are great but not elite with about 20-30 wins. I would put Hamlin first because he's the most dominant in that group, with several wins at short tracks. However I don't think he's been the same since his Fontana crash. Edwards has more cookie cutter wins and has some bad years occasionally but he got barely snipped from titles twice. Dale Jr. is probably the next in the group, but he's not entirely dominant and a majority of his wins have come at either Daytona and Talladega. Then I would put Biffle, as he's had some seasons where he's made a run for the championships but he's too inconsistent to ever be an elite driver. And I find Newman's and Kahne's careers overrated. Don't get me wrong, they're good, but a majority of their wins came in one season with some advantages (the 12 was set up for taking advantage of clean and fuel mileage and the 9 had a strong cookie cutter program in 2006) and beyond those seasons they have not gotten more than 2 wins a year, so I can basically say that 2003 and 2006 were flukes. They have been average at best in Hendrick cars as well. But they are still good. And saying Harvick is better than Wallace for "crown jewel" wins is a dumb statement...for now. If Harvick keeps up his pace, comparing Harvick and Wallace could be debatable. But I think everyone is overrating how good RCR was after 2001. Since 2001, RCR has won 36 races. 23 of those were won by Harvick, and no one besides him has won for RCR since 2011. If RCR was such a good team, then why did Harvick have a majority of their victories? I mean, in 2006 Harvick had more wins than Burton had with RCR in NINE years. I know he declined after 2010, but even a solid driver only averaged .666 wins a year for RCR when he was actually relevant. I mean let's be honest. I can count the number of elite seasons RCR has had the last 15 years on one hand. And then Harvick, who only led more than 600 laps in a season once for RCR, goes out and lead 2,100 in a season for SHR not once but TWICE. Imagine if he was with SHR for his entire career. While you don't have to like him, (the Talladega incident turned me off as well) you have to admit he is easily the most underrated driver of the last decade. 670. Aaron posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:36 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Some solid points tbh, but Dale Jr. has 10 plate wins and 26 overall wins. He's actually been pretty balanced (to some extent) as far as track type. 6 Talladega 4 Daytona 3 Phoenix 3 Richmond 2 Michigan 2 Pocono 1 Texas 1 Dover 1 Atlanta 1 Bristol 1 Chicago 1 Martinsville 671. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 2:24 am Rate this comment: (1) (1) "The '96 Dega wreck, that injured my boy, was just a product of restrictor plate racing." "First, Ernie Irvan was not a "menace" on the track. A menace would be someone who INTENTIONALLY wants to cause harm, injury, or death. Ernie was an aggressive driver, and the wreck at Dega in '96 was simply the product of restrictor plate racing, he didn't mean to do it, but since Irvan has a bad reputation, he automatically gets slammed for it. Meanwhile, if someone like Terry Labonte did it, it would be brushed off as a racing deal. Saying that Ernie is a menace for that crash is like saying the inside wall at Daytona is a menace for injuring Kyle Busch." Wow, just wow... basically saying Ernie Irvan is innocent??? I've never heard anyone give Ernie Irvan this much support. There's a REASON he had notorious crashes. It's because he was too inconsistent of race car driver. The drivers asking Nascar to suspend him speaks volumes on his abilities and mind set. When else have drivers done that??? When the drivers ask that and are scared to run around you then you know there's a problem. Earnhardt, Gant, Marlin, Petty, Allison, Schrader couldn't stand Irvan. He was like Kevin Cogan. He had a horrible reputation. The reason for the wreck at 'dega wasn't because of a product of restrictor plate racing. He was behind Earnhardt single file passing Marlin and if you go back and look at the replay carefully as they are trying to freight train Marlin and Irvan slightly touches the apron in the tri-oval (how someone does that I don't know) and then drifts up into Marlin. It's not like it was 3-wide. It wasn't difficult. Just stay in line. They were single file going by Marlin. THAT is not a product of restrictor plate racing, that is a product of not knowing what you're doing or not being able to see. Of course you go look at the replay on youtube and you see more "Swervin Irvan" comments. That wreck cost Dale a shot at the '96 title and caused him major pain and suffering until he has his surgery in 2000. "As for Darlington, he bumped Schrader and turned him. It's not like he just plowed through the whole field like Harvick this year at Dega." Yeah, being 10 laps down racing like it was his last race. Harvick didn't plow anyone, he just clipped Bayne, now that was a product of the Chase. And saying if Labonte would have done it, it would have been brushed aside... well that's just it, he wouldn't have done it. 672. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 2:52 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "Ernie was a great driver that made the sport better. He drove so hard, his driving alone was worth the price of admission. He was like Dale, Tim, Junior Johnson, and Fireball. Given the current climate of lame racing and lame race car wheel holders, wouldn't the Early 90s Ernie Irvan be a very welcome addition? If you answered no, I suggest only watching Formula 1. " I'd rather watch F1 than someone taking out the whole field. I don't see how someone taking out the field time after time can be good for the sport. He affected and impacted so many lives in a negative way. It was sort of sad in a way. I guess it was worth the price of admission if you like watching demolition derby's. I never thought he had much personality either. We have an early 90's version of Ernie Irvan and his name is Ricky Stenhouse. He wrecks about every other week. "Again, though, what characterizes a "big" win? Yes, Darlington is one of the toughest tracks to drive in addition to its long history, but could you not say that about short tracks like the aforementioned Martinsville, Richmond and even Bristol? Tracks that Wallace OBLITERATES Harvick at historically? Sorry, I'm really not trying to take shots at you here. You're obviously not the only one that believes this. I just have never quite understood this logic. The "historical" factor to these tracks might add a nice little touch to a driver's resume, but nothing that should impact his/her all-time standing." I give Rusty the upperhand over Harvick when it comes to short tracks. I never said Harvick trumped because of that, I just feel Harvick has done a lot more with less. I feel that he has a better overall resume' and he's still adding to it. Harvick has overwhelmingly been better at plate races and flat tracks. Once he got in top equipment he has been awesome just like I thought he would. I think he has been the best driver overall since 2010. "Given what we found out in 2001 about Dale's meticulous detail to the safety, I can say with 95% confidence that Dale wouldn't have got hurt in that wreck if he wasn't using seats and seat belts from the 1950s. There is one person responsible for Dale's getting injured in that wreck and one person only: Dale Earnhardt. And he is my favorite athlete ever." Sadly I agree. After soaking it all in after 14 years and being in denial some with it, he raced like he had never raced before and had he been out for himself or selfish like he had been so many times as a racer (not as a person), he would probably still be here. He blocked one too many times. The spotter was repeating "inside" constantly. He was a stubborn person and didn't like change. Simpson used to recommend to him that he needed to change some things inside the car. Tbh, I really feel like he had a chance at saving his car if you go back and look at the replay had he not hit into Schrader. 673. 23andJoe posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:25 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) >Given the current climate of lame racing and lame race car wheel holders, wouldn't the Early 90s Ernie Irvan be a very welcome addition? If you answered no, I suggest only watching Formula 1. I present Exhibit A, Kyle Busch, and Exhibit B, the reaction of fans to the driving style of Kyle Busch. Your Honor, this case is rested. 674. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.19.2015 - 7:58 am Rate this comment: (0) (5) The fan reaction towards Kyle is due to his attitude, not his driving. Yeah, the mouth breathers in Joonyer Nation got really mad at Kyle after that Richmond race. But these are the same people who yell in joy and jump up and down at races every time Joon passes a lapped low budget car. But those of us that don't like him and still have all our teeth don't like his attitude. He throws child like tantrums. And again, anyone who even puts Harvick in the same sentence with Rusty has no idea what they are talking about. Rusty was a dominator AND a closer for many seasons. When he was up front, as a fan you NEVER wondered how Rusty was gonna blow it (until later in his career). You just wondered if his motor and tires would hold up. And he did all his damage against fields stacked with true legends in their prime and had less races to make a mark. He was with two teams in his prime notorious for being fast but wildly inconsistent. The #27 Blue Max team was loaded with talent but had financial issues from Day 1 with Tim, and then with Rusty. Remember, Rusty had to pay the tire bill himself in many races and sued the owner so he could get out of his contract WHILE he was winning the '89 Winston Cup. And Penske always cared more about his Indy teams, never fixing the fact you could count on at least 4 Rusty engine failures a year which sunk his title hopes. Also he tried to bail out of NASCAR a few times with Rusty convincing him to stay. Through it all, Rusty won 55 races, was the only driver to beat Dale in a championship battle, and racked up multiple wins at every type of track except plate tracks. He cleaned up at the short tracks, the road courses, the 1 milers, the 2 milers, and the unrestricted 2.5 milers. As a matter of fact, as a driver, I have him ranked ahead of Gordon. 675. Cornys posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:00 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Some solid points tbh, but Dale Jr. has 10 plate wins and 26 overall wins. He's actually been pretty balanced (to some extent) as far as track type." There are 36 races a year, and four of them are plate races (11.11%). A perfectly balanced win record would put JR with only 3 plate track wins. JR is also good at lower banked tracks like Phoenix, Martinsville, Pocono, and Richmond. Michigan is a lower banked track too relative to many of the circuit. 676. Smiff_2 posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:04 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) No offense, Ryan W., but comparing Irvan to Stenhouse is so far off base, I can't even comprehend it...lol. Early 90's Irvan may have, on occasion, been thought of or referred to as a 'weapon', but that doesn't change the fact that he was a near-weekly contender (and won races) for an unproven, 3rd-tier team (no offense to Tony Glover, Runt Pittman and all the other talented guys that worked their asses off there). MEANWHILE, Stenhouse has yet to even SNIFF a victory, except for maybe the 2013 Spring race at 'Dega, where he ran strong and was passed for the lead by Edwards just before the lengthy rain delay. I won't argue that Ernie wasn't dangerous, because yes, at times he *was*. However, you can't deny the man's talent and tenacity. He survived the same injuries that killed Earnhardt, Petty, Irwin, Roper and countless others. And yet, not only did he come back, he was immediately competitive and, eventually, returned to victory lane a few times before getting shafted by Yates (in favor of one of the biggest busts to ever come down the pike, Kenny Irwin). In my eyes, Ernie Irvan falls in the same category as Tim Richmond and Steve Park.....3 guys who had just begun to hit their stride and show their true potential before injury or illness derailed their once-promising careers. 677. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:34 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) I don't really think Kyle Busch is a fair comparison to Ernie Irvan. As its been said already, Ernie never caused any wrecks on purpose, he was just careless. Kyle Busch in the 2011 season ALONE caused about four different intentional wrecks across three different series. Now that is what you call a menace (although he has definitely matured some since then). 678. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:16 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In favor of one of the biggest busts to ever come down the pike, Kenny Irwin." Really? The guy raced what, two full seasons for Yates before he got fired? And then another season and a half at Sabates before his fatal crash? You can't label him a bust, in fact I think if that crash didn't happen considering how much the team improved after Ganassi bought it I think he may have had the potential to be a McMurray type driver, which isn't great but not "bust" label worthy. 679. Spen posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Smiff: 3rd tier? Please name me 15 teams that were better than MMM in the early nineties. I'd agree with second tier; they were roughly the tenth best team out there, which is about where Irvan usually ran points-wise (except for '91, the year where every Ford not driven by Davey Allison sucked.) The only times from 88-99 where they weren't top-15 was Sterling's lame duck season, and when they had Rick "I manage to make Bobby Hillin and Wally Dallenbach look good" Wilson. And the fact that he occasionally looked decent with them speaks volumes. 680. Smiff_2 posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, let me rephrase that....they were 3rd tier PRIOR to Irvan's arrival, and he then elevated them TO 2nd tier, fair enough? lol And 88&4fan, maybe calling him a "bust" *is* a little much, as he *was* rushed into Cup far too soon AND only got to run 2.5 seasons, but even then, I'm not really sure how high the ceiling was for him. Irvan ran better than him in a Nelson Bowers car, for pete's sake lol. Irwin may have come around, but putting him in the 28 over Ernie was *definitely* a huge mistake. Just compare their numbers for the 1998-1999 seasons, and keep in mind the difference in equipment: Irvin: 51 starts, 0 top 5's, 16 top 10's, 3 poles, 205 laps led Irwin: 66 starts, 3 top 5's, 10 top 10's, 3 poles, 165 laps led In summation, yes, it's unfair to call Irwin a bust, but at the same time, I've had stuck with Irvan, hands down. 681. Smiff_2 posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:13 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Please excuse the egregious error in the last line lol 682. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:37 am Rate this comment: (2) (9) 15 teams better than MMM in the early 90s: Penske Childress Junior Johnson Bud Moore Robert Yates Melling (before Bill left) Roush Sabates Alan Kulwicki/Geoff Bodine Leo Jackson Hendrick Darrell Waltrip (w/ Hendrick engines) Ricky Rudd That's 13, but the fact is MMM won only TWO non plate races after Ernie left. With Ernie, they won Bristol, Watkins Glen, and Sears Point. Ernie goes to Yates and immediately has DOMINATING wins at Charlotte, Martinsville, Richmond, and Atlanta. And while we are talking about "weapons" and "menaces", what about Tony? He has intentionally wrecked people at dangerous high speed tracks like Daytona and Pocono while bragging about causing those wrecks, wrecked himself trying to wreck Kyle Busch at high speed Vegas. And then is praised as a "garage leader" by today's drivers. What a joke. That is why these drivers are running fans off by the minute. Then Tony goes dirt track racing, breaks a 19 year old girl's back, shatters his own leg, then KILLS somebody by swerving at him while he was on foot gesturing at him after being wrecked. He isn't just a menace and a danger, he is DEADLY. 683. We need more Onion posted: 11.19.2015 - 11:19 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rudd's team was not better in the early 90's, having not existed back then. SABCO was certainly worse than MMM and Bud Moore was not better either. 684. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 11:25 am Rate this comment: (1) (2) And while we are talking about "weapons" and "menaces", what about Tony? He has intentionally wrecked people at dangerous high speed tracks like Daytona and Pocono while bragging about causing those wrecks, wrecked himself trying to wreck Kyle Busch at high speed Vegas. And then is praised as a "garage leader" by today's drivers. What a joke. That is why these drivers are running fans off by the minute. Then Tony goes dirt track racing, breaks a 19 year old girl's back, shatters his own leg, then KILLS somebody by swerving at him while he was on foot gesturing at him after being wrecked. He isn't just a menace and a danger, he is DEADLY. Now @682 DSFF/JG this something we completely agree on. It's one reason why I really don't want to rank him in top-10. It's like he should be an after thought. "Ernie was a great driver that made the sport better. He drove so hard, his driving alone was worth the price of admission. He was like Dale, Tim, Junior Johnson, and Fireball." However, my head is getting blisters and scars on it after I've been scratching my head for a while now after seeing that comment. 685. The Long Shot posted: 11.19.2015 - 11:27 am Rate this comment: (3) (1) "And while we are talking about "weapons" and "menaces", what about Tony? He has intentionally wrecked people at dangerous high speed tracks like Daytona and Pocono while bragging about causing those wrecks, wrecked himself trying to wreck Kyle Busch at high speed Vegas. And then is praised as a "garage leader" by today's drivers. What a joke. That is why these drivers are running fans off by the minute. Then Tony goes dirt track racing, breaks a 19 year old girl's back, shatters his own leg, then KILLS somebody by swerving at him while he was on foot gesturing at him after being wrecked. He isn't just a menace and a danger, he is DEADLY." Oh boy, here we go... 686. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 11:33 am Rate this comment: (3) (2) So a guy walks in front of Tony's lane at a dark track with a dark fire suit and its Tony's fault... But whatever. 687. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 11:44 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Uggh... here we go again... actually, you know what, no. I don't want this to turn into what happened on HIS page. 688. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:04 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "And again, anyone who even puts Harvick in the same sentence with Rusty has no idea what they are talking about. Rusty was a dominator AND a closer for many seasons. When he was up front, as a fan you NEVER wondered how Rusty was gonna blow it (until later in his career). You just wondered if his motor and tires would hold up. And he did all his damage against fields stacked with true legends in their prime and had less races to make a mark. He was with two teams in his prime notorious for being fast but wildly inconsistent. The #27 Blue Max team was loaded with talent but had financial issues from Day 1 with Tim, and then with Rusty. Remember, Rusty had to pay the tire bill himself in many races and sued the owner so he could get out of his contract WHILE he was winning the '89 Winston Cup. And Penske always cared more about his Indy teams, never fixing the fact you could count on at least 4 Rusty engine failures a year which sunk his title hopes. Also he tried to bail out of NASCAR a few times with Rusty convincing him to stay." I don't think there is any question now had Harvick been in top tier equipment during the 13 years he was at RCR that he would have won more (look at 2014 and 2015). I would estimate at least 60 races. So Harvick had his misfortunes for a lot longer time than Rusty had. I actually asked some "old timers" last night at a local diner who have followed the sport since the 60's who would they rather have in a car to win a race Rusty or Harvick. 4 out of the 5 said Harvick, one in which was my dad (and he dislikes both). And none of them said they liked either, mainly about their attitudes. Some words mentioned when referring to Rusty was "choker", "had chance to be better than he was, but blew it." "Through it all, Rusty won 55 races, was the only driver to beat Dale in a championship battle, and racked up multiple wins at every type of track except plate tracks. He cleaned up at the short tracks, the road courses, the 1 milers, the 2 milers, and the unrestricted 2.5 milers." Jeff Gordon also beat Dale in a championship battle. I know Gordon had a nice lead that he lost down the stretch, but Dale tried to get in his head as much as he could. Rusty cleaned up because he was in good cars. Tbh though, Dale lost the '89 championship more so than Rusty won it. He had some misfortune down the stretch at his home NC tracks. As a matter of fact, as a driver, I have him ranked ahead of Gordon." LOL. Gordon owned Rusty head to head. Bristol twice, Charlotte, Daytona to name a some... Rusty once even said, "the boy has cost me a lot of prestige and money" 689. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "No offense, Ryan W., but comparing Irvan to Stenhouse is so far off base, I can't even comprehend it...lol. Early 90's Irvan may have, on occasion, been thought of or referred to as a 'weapon', but that doesn't change the fact that he was a near-weekly contender (and won races) for an unproven, 3rd-tier team (no offense to Tony Glover, Runt Pittman and all the other talented guys that worked their asses off there). MEANWHILE, Stenhouse has yet to even SNIFF a victory, except for maybe the 2013 Spring race at 'Dega, where he ran strong and was passed for the lead by Edwards just before the lengthy rain delay. I won't argue that Ernie wasn't dangerous, because yes, at times he *was*. However, you can't deny the man's talent and tenacity. He survived the same injuries that killed Earnhardt, Petty, Irwin, Roper and countless others. And yet, not only did he come back, he was immediately competitive and, eventually, returned to victory lane a few times before getting shafted by Yates (in favor of one of the biggest busts to ever come down the pike, Kenny Irwin). In my eyes, Ernie Irvan falls in the same category as Tim Richmond and Steve Park.....3 guys who had just begun to hit their stride and show their true potential before injury or illness derailed their once-promising careers." I was referring to Irvan and Stenhouse because of the wrecks. I agree that Irvan had some talent, but a lot of times guys he just couldn't put a full race together. He would make bone head decisions that was completely uncalled for and put a lot of people in danger including himself. No one could trust to race around him. The 'dega crash in '96 was not a product of restrictor plates. All he had to do was stay in line, and that was difficult for him for whatever reason. At the '92 500 it was waaayyy to early to be doing what he did. And the '90 Darlington race, well that was just... well I won't say. The guy was a weapon and he couldn't get out of Nascar fast enough. He was just too inconsistent as a driver. The '94 All Star race he tried to do his own pass in the grass version and wrecked himself. Afterwards he says, "I just wasn't looking at the big picture." Duh 690. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:23 pm Rate this comment: (2) (7) "So a guy walks in front of Tony's lane at a dark track with a dark fire suit and its Tony's fault... But whatever. " I'll only comment on this one time, because you guys are right it can get ugly. Tony Stewart is fully responsible for Ward getting killed that night. Tony's ego killed that boy that night. "I'm Tony Stewart, who are you to be saying or motioning to me that I did anything wrong. He revved up his engine when he was about to go by and when he did that his tires clipped Ward. I won't say anything else about it. That's my opinion. I feel this site isn't a place to argue about that. It was a very dark day in racing. 691. Biscuits In A Red Bull posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:28 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) It's entirely speculation. Nobody knows exactly what happened. Even the police. What's done is done, what's been said has been said, there is no need to bring it up again, nothing constructive can come of it. I'll get my coat... 692. The Long Shot posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:32 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) Kevin Ward was inebriated and pissed, and for that reason decided it would be a good idea to jump in front of Stewart's car in a poorly lit area. There's no other way to explain it. But I won't be bothered arguing this point again, for it'll just be as fruitless an effort as the last time. 693. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:38 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) "As a matter of fact, as a driver, I have him ranked ahead of Gordon." That is almost as dumb as cjs ranking David Pearson 7th all time. Almost. 694. Sector posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:50 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) So how many times has Jimmie beaten Brad and vice versa when it comes to winning the races? I'd think Jimmie has the upper hand, Texas being the most popular this year and the 2012 one. 695. Richard Head posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:54 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Faith - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something Judgemental - Having or displaying an overly critical point of view Pragmative - Dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations Advice for some on here 696. BMan0213 posted: 11.19.2015 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "As a matter of fact, as a driver, I have him ranked ahead of Gordon." That is almost as dumb as cjs ranking David Pearson 7th all time. Almost." Yeah I agree with that. The gap between the two is just too wide. If Jeff had less wins and maybe only one more championship (like say Terry Labonte) I could see the argument. With Jeff almost 40 more wins and 3 (and after Sunday maybe 4) more Championships I just can't see it. 697. Eric posted: 11.19.2015 - 1:52 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) Big Mac Fan, There is a big difference between Dale Jr. and Dale Sr. in Road Courses although it was not the best type of track for both Earnhardts. Dale Sr. actually was underrated in road courses and was good on them despite only one win. He only had one win, but if you look at the amount of top 5's on road courses say Dale Sr. way better than Dale Jr. at Road Courses. Dale Sr. had a combined 20 top 5's, 31 top 10's in 47 starts on road courses in the cup series. Dale Sr. had 13 top 5's and 14 top 10's at Riverside in 20 races including 3 2nd place finishes. He finished 2nd to Darrell Waltrip 2 times there and once to Tim Richmond. There is no shame finishing 2nd the drivers I mentioned on road courses. DW was a great course driver in his era and Tim Richmond might have ended up with more road course wins than Jeff Gordon if it wasn't for aids. Dale had 1 win, 4 top 5's and 9 top 10 in 12 starts at Sonoma. That isn't terrible unlike his son at the same track. Dale had 3 top 5's, 8 top 10's in 15 starts at Watkin's Glen. This was Dale's weakest road course track of the 3 road courses he raced on in cup and the track record was solid. 698. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.19.2015 - 3:17 pm Rate this comment: (3) (9) Reasons I rate Rusty ahead of Gordon: Career arc. Rusty never had a team that dominated the sport like Jeff has had his entire career. Or had the combo of speed and reliability. Plus Rusty had to run his first two years in truly second rate equipment, then had 3 years of trying to recover from Blue Max's financial issues and build Penske South up with a skittish Captain ('90-'92). HMS has been rock solid financially and stability wise since the late 80s. Competition. When Jeff was really cleaning up from '95-'99, his competition was struggling. With the new engineering era and teams like RCR and Penske and Roush haphazardly adding new teams, suddenly HMS was head and shoulders above the competition. Rusty had fast cars, but never had the advantages HMS had. The Jimmie Johnson Factor. At the end of 2001, Jeff had 4 championships, 58 wins, and was only 30 years old, not even at a driver's traditional prime yet. Here we are, 14 years later, and he still has 4 titles and 93 wins. Why did his historic run of dominance come to a screeching halt before his prime racing years? Cause Jimmie Johnson showed up. For Jeff to be so totally dominated by a teammate in the same equipment for for almost every single one of their 14 seasons together is inexcusable. I know JJ is an all time great, but he has surpassed Gordon in every single way. The Hendrick factor. Not only has Jeff watched an HMS car win the title 7 times while he was racing, he also saw HMS satelite team SHR win 2 championships. So in a 23 year career teams with the same motors as him won NINE championships. Rusty never once in his career saw a car of the same manufacturer win the title. Inability to close. With the exception of 1998, Jeff either was in the title hunt and failed to close strong, or was completely out of it. Not only did he only close strong once in 23 seasons while in the points battle, he never even came from way back to scare a title. Rusty came from behind late to beat Dale in '89, and came from way back to make a battle of it in '88 and '93. 699. BluesTravelerFan posted: 11.19.2015 - 4:08 pm Rate this comment: (2) (0) On a different(and more positive) note I'm really looking forward to the next season and what the new package will bring. I've been watching the Kentucky race(which I didn't to see much of when it actually happened) and was very pleases with what I saw compared to previously, and I hadn't enjoyed a non-plate cup race as much as the one I saw at Darlington in probably 4 years. While by no means is this going to be magic, I think there will definitely be a marked improvement in the racing with less downforce, and I can't wait for Atlanta. The one extra thing I wished NASCAR had done though, was cut down more on the horsepower. It has been clear that reducing it to 725 has if anything increased corner speeds and made passing even MORE difficult. It wasn't a big enough change. I agree with others that have said they would rather have just stayed at full power, I think that would be better than the way things are currently. At least then, drivers had to lift a bit more, and that's why the racing in 2014 was quite a bit better than this year. But I think better than both of these options would be to take even more power away and reduce the power down to at least 600. I know that won't be a popular statement, but I was watching footage from the 1992 Winston race that we all love so much, and on the onboard camera they showed from Geoff Bodine he was barely pulling 180 on the straights and getting all the way down to 140-148 in the corners.I could be wrong, but I don't think those cars were even pulling 590 in the HP department. Just my 2 cents. 700. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 4:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I agree Jason that Jimmie Johnson is better than Gordon (a lot of people here disagree with that but when you look at it, he already has more championships (and don't give me the but... but... the chase... he should have 7...) and will likely retire with more wins too) but Rusty? Come on. That's really stretching it. 701. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 4:38 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Since we've been comparing drivers a lot this week, here is (and I've probably posted this before but it may have changed slightly since then) in my opinion the top 25 drivers of all-time. 1. Richard Petty 2. David Pearson 3. Dale Earnhardt 4. Jimmie Johnson 5. Jeff Gordon 6. Bobby Allison 7. Cale Yarborough 8. Darrell Waltrip 9. Lee Petty 10. Tony Stewart 11. Rusty Wallace 12. Junior Johnson 13. Bill Elliott 14. Herb Thomas 15. Fireball Roberts 16. Terry Labonte 17. Ned Jarrett 18. Tim Flock 19. Mark Martin 20. Kevin Harvick 21. Joe Weatherly 22. Dale Jarrett 23. Alan Kulwicki 24. Matt Kenseth 25. Jim Paschal Honorable Mentions: (not in any particular order) Fred Lorenzen, Bobby Labonte, Ernie Irvan, Harry Gant, Kurt Busch, Ricky Rudd, Davey Allison 702. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 4:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Crap, just realized I completely forgot about Curtis Turner on my list. Put him somewhere around 22nd. 703. racefangurl posted: 11.19.2015 - 5:19 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) 695 may have issues with people having faith in favorite drivers and not being pragmative about them. 704. MAR posted: 11.19.2015 - 5:22 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I know the king has 200 wins and I know that's why a lot of people make him the greatest ever but his competition level in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's weren't half as Strong what Earnhardt, Johnson, and Gordon experienced I'm not say the King isn't the best ever but if we're just saying he's the best because off the 200 wins that can be a bit misleading considering majority of those came before the modern era. 705. Premium Doesn't Suck 62 66 94 98 posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:08 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Sponsor updates: #42 Target/Axe Camo for Our Heroes #83 VooDoo BBQ & Grille #98 XYIENCE/Big Red 706. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:11 pm Rate this comment: (0) (3) "Faith - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something Judgemental - Having or displaying an overly critical point of view Pragmative - Dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations" God will be Tony's judge ultimately. Like all of us. 707. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:16 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "There is a big difference between Dale Jr. and Dale Sr. in Road Courses although it was not the best type of track for both Earnhardts. Dale Sr. actually was underrated in road courses and was good on them despite only one win. He only had one win, but if you look at the amount of top 5's on road courses say Dale Sr. way better than Dale Jr. at Road Courses. Dale Sr. had a combined 20 top 5's, 31 top 10's in 47 starts on road courses in the cup series. Dale Sr. had 13 top 5's and 14 top 10's at Riverside in 20 races including 3 2nd place finishes. He finished 2nd to Darrell Waltrip 2 times there and once to Tim Richmond. There is no shame finishing 2nd the drivers I mentioned on road courses. DW was a great course driver in his era and Tim Richmond might have ended up with more road course wins than Jeff Gordon if it wasn't for aids. Dale had 1 win, 4 top 5's and 9 top 10 in 12 starts at Sonoma. That isn't terrible unlike his son at the same track. Dale had 3 top 5's, 8 top 10's in 15 starts at Watkin's Glen. This was Dale's weakest road course track of the 3 road courses he raced on in cup and the track record was solid. " Dale was a great road course driver. If not for a stroker in 1993 at Sonoma he more than likely would have won. Most of the time he did what he had to do there in his championship years. His greatest performance at a road course was no doubt at the Glen in '96 two weeks after his crash he had at 'dega. He set the track record in qualifying and led most of the way until the end when his brakes wore out and more than likely he was fatigued, but wouldn't admit it. 708. Sean posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:45 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "[Irvan] was like Kevin Cogan. He had a horrible reputation." The Irvan/Stenhouse comparison was even more ridiculous, but this one is strange too. I haven't really watched any of his races except for some of the Indy 500s, but his entire reputation was ruined based on one race: the 1982 Indy 500, where he started 2nd, spun into 3rd place starter Foyt, and collected 4th place starter Mario Andretti, leading Foyt to vent about that 'damn Cooogin' and Andretti saying 'This is what happens when you have children doing a man's job up front', but there is some evidence that Cogan may have had a mechanical failure at the start considering Mears had a similar testing crash at Michigan about the same time in the other Penske car. That one incident gets blown out of proportion because Foyt and Andretti were involved and did have those great quotes, but while Cogan wasn't a great driver or anything, I never heard anything about him causing carnage on a constant basis (again I haven't watched most of the '80s CART races, so maybe if I do, I'll come to a different conclusion). Beyond just that, Cogan was a pretty average IndyCar driver while Irvan was a briefly great NASCAR driver. Comparing Irvan to people with 0 or 1 win(s) stretch(es) credibility. Compare Irvan's driving style to that of let's see: Curtis Turner, Junior Johnson, Kyle Busch, Geoff Bodine, Paul Tracy, Alex Zanardi, Michael Andretti or drivers like that who dominated but were also wildly inconsistent and way oevrdrove would make more sense (I realize most of those were more successful but still better comparisons than Cogan or Stenhouse). Most of these drivers didn't win titles either for the same reason. Andretti and Zanardi did in spite of being overly aggressive hotheads because their cars were so far superior to anyone else's, and Tracy did because pretty much every other major CART driver left after 2001-2002 (Andretti/Brack/Castroneves/de Ferran/Dixon/Franchitti/Kanaan to IRL, da Matta to F1), but at least compare dominant and wildly inconsistent aggressive drivers to each other, not crash-prone drivers who hardly ever contended. I'm surprised you didn't make a Jimmy Spencer comparison. "15 teams better than MMM in the early 90s:" Agree with Sabates. Onion, Kyle Petty looked way better in '90-'93 than he ever did before or since. He had Gary Nelson and Robin Pemberton who were both highly regarded crew chiefs at the time (and two of the most notorious cheating crew chiefs ever, as they were doing when Petty was there), and while subbing for the injured Petty in the #42 Tommy Kendall came closer than anyone else since Mark Donohue (to the present day I'd say, with the possible exception of Wally at Watkins Glen in '95) to win a Cup road course race as a road course ringer. Rudd wasn't an owner when Irvan was at Morgan-McClure and I'd put Moore and Leo Jackson equal to Morgan-McClure (Gant was overachieving just as much for Jackson as Irvan was for Morgan-McClure, probably more even...I do rate Gant a little higher despite his relative lack of road course/restrictor plate success.) What did Jackson have besides Gant and Petree? Pretty much nothing, but yes, both are legends. I don't agree with Rusty over Gordon though. I understand the argument (Rusty was never outperformed by a teammate) but he never had good teammates ever. In 1998-2000, he didn't outperform Jeremy Mayfield ALL that much (at least not as much as he should have considering I never really thought Mayfield was very good at all) and Ryan Newman owned him and has done little since. Yeah, that was at an older age than Gordon is now so maybe that's not saying much, but just arguing that Johnson had outperformed Gordon (which he has, but I'd still take Gordon career-wise) doesn't mean it follows that Wallace is better than either of them. I think there are possible teammates who could have outperformed him certain years, not just Earnhardt. I might take Rusty over Jeff as a short track driver, but Jeff owns him in general based on his versatility if nothing else. "Dale had 1 win, 4 top 5's and 9 top 10 in 12 starts at Sonoma. That isn't terrible unlike his son at the same track. Dale had 3 top 5's, 8 top 10's in 15 starts at Watkin's Glen. This was Dale's weakest road course track of the 3 road courses he raced on in cup and the track record was solid." And when you consider that Earnhardt got caught up in some unavoidable REALLY silly crashes directly in front of him in both '93 road course races, that could easily give him three. Junior hasn't really been close once. "So how many times has Jimmie beaten Brad and vice versa when it comes to winning the races? I'd think Jimmie has the upper hand, Texas being the most popular this year and the 2012 one." If you're talking about who came up top in terms of race-deciding final lead changes, Jimmie had a 6-1 lead over Brad entering this year, and now after Texas it's 7-1... The fact that Brad was so snakebitten in late race battles with Jimmie in the past meant we all should have seen Texas coming. Brad however has an EXTREMELY good record in final lead changes versus anybody else (he is 8-2 vs. anybody except Johnson). 709. Sean posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:54 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "In summation, yes, it's unfair to call Irwin a bust, but at the same time, I've had stuck with Irvan, hands down." Not sure it was Yates's choice. Texaco wanted him out after he forgot to mention them in the 1996 Winston Cup banquet, blew off a few sponsor meetings, and got involved in a barroom brawl (that's what I won't defend). Ford and Texaco both wanted a young marketable Jeff Gordon clone after 'losing' Jeff Gordon (Gordon was a hot Ford prospect driving for Bill Davis and linked to Cale Yarborough and Roush; after he signed to Hendrick, Ford still tried to sign him for the #28 after Davey Allison died, but Gordon refused). This particular period in the '90s was when manufacturers were most heavily involved in making driver selections for their teams. After losing Gordon, Ford decided it wanted to retaliate in grabbing Chevy drivers, so it did so with both Irvan and Jarrett, then Ford wanted a Jeff Gordon clone, etc..., etc... I think Ford/Texaco made those decisions for Yates. Hell, in 2000 after Irwin was fired, they wanted Yates to hire Michael Andretti (since he was driving the Texaco/Havoline Ford for Newman-Haas in CART, but after Irwin's failure, Yates wanted an experienced driver, so he went his own way and hired Rudd). Maybe Yates overruling Ford on that matter is why Ford essentially made Roush its factory team and abandoned Yates not long afterward. 710. Anonymous posted: 11.19.2015 - 6:56 pm Rate this comment: (2) (6) "Tony Stewart is fully responsible for Ward getting killed that night. Tony's ego killed that boy that night. "I'm Tony Stewart, who are you to be saying or motioning to me that I did anything wrong. He revved up his engine when he was about to go by and when he did that his tires clipped Ward. I won't say anything else about it. That's my opinion. I feel this site isn't a place to argue about that. It was a very dark day in racing." Tony definitely revved his engine, I'm surprised by how many people ignore this fact. He's proven over the years that he's a morally questionable human being and I don't think he's worth the defense so many seem so quick to give him. Still, Kevin made a series of stupid decisions and ultimately, he wouldn't have died if he didn't get out of his car and walk on the track. At best, Tony made no effort to avoid hitting him, but Kevin only has himself to blame for even being in that position. 711. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 7:32 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Reasons I rate Rusty ahead of Gordon: Career arc. Rusty never had a team that dominated the sport like Jeff has had his entire career. Or had the combo of speed and reliability. Plus Rusty had to run his first two years in truly second rate equipment, then had 3 years of trying to recover from Blue Max's financial issues and build Penske South up with a skittish Captain ('90-'92). HMS has been rock solid financially and stability wise since the late 80s. Competition. When Jeff was really cleaning up from '95-'99, his competition was struggling. With the new engineering era and teams like RCR and Penske and Roush haphazardly adding new teams, suddenly HMS was head and shoulders above the competition. Rusty had fast cars, but never had the advantages HMS had. The Jimmie Johnson Factor. At the end of 2001, Jeff had 4 championships, 58 wins, and was only 30 years old, not even at a driver's traditional prime yet. Here we are, 14 years later, and he still has 4 titles and 93 wins. Why did his historic run of dominance come to a screeching halt before his prime racing years? Cause Jimmie Johnson showed up. For Jeff to be so totally dominated by a teammate in the same equipment for for almost every single one of their 14 seasons together is inexcusable. I know JJ is an all time great, but he has surpassed Gordon in every single way. The Hendrick factor. Not only has Jeff watched an HMS car win the title 7 times while he was racing, he also saw HMS satelite team SHR win 2 championships. So in a 23 year career teams with the same motors as him won NINE championships. Rusty never once in his career saw a car of the same manufacturer win the title. Inability to close. With the exception of 1998, Jeff either was in the title hunt and failed to close strong, or was completely out of it. Not only did he only close strong once in 23 seasons while in the points battle, he never even came from way back to scare a title. Rusty came from behind late to beat Dale in '89, and came from way back to make a battle of it in '88 and '93. " Now we have people putting Rusty Wallace in tier 1 of all-time drivers. Wow... As I mentioned earlier Jeff owned Rusty head to head. 1997 and 2002 Bristol, 1998 Charlotte, and 1999 Daytona 500. Both had equal cars at all those races. Jeff took wins away from Rusty and thus added to his win total... Although Jimmie has won more titles (He also had a notorious cheater as a crew chief), Jeff's lack of even more success can be blamed on the Chase. Unfortunately for Jeff, he was in WC 11 years, and then had to go to a completely new points system that decides a champion. Jeff admitted that the Winston Cup way of deciding a champion suited him a lot more and it did. The Chase fabricates a champion and it did for Johnson for at least 3 of his 6 titles. If not for the Chase, Gordon would have won at least 2 more titles. So Jeff was already a legend, the Chase has caused him not be more of a legend than he already is. The Chase has been setup for Jimmie over the years because some of his better tracks where in the final 10 races. Johnson even admitted to this. Again, Rusty had to have freak luck to win the 1989 title. So many things went his way down the stretch. If they call the caution to come out for the #8 car spinning at N. Wilkesboro late in that race like they should have no way Dale loses that title. You should know this being an Earnhardt fan. 712. Matt Fink posted: 11.19.2015 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (2) (2) "Nice" to see Ryan Blaney in the Penske 22 Xfinity car with Cup series type money invested into it. Blaney could be the most overrated driver. Future Cup champion, as the analysts like to say. He has proven nothing other than he can win vs non-cup drivers. Kentucky once or twice, and Iowa. Lucky win at Bristol, lucky for him he got into the lead at Indy do to another fluke-lucky restart. Has been semi-fast in Cup due to the stupid new horsepower rules that NASCAR has in place to favor overrated up and coming drivers. Everyone says about the "great future" the sport will have. I forget who said it, I think in another comment section, that in 5-7 years when all the current stars are gone, their will little to no competition, and that some drivers like Blaney and Elliott are future Cup champions by default. When this time comes, all it will take is another "real talent" like Jeff Gordon to get into Cup and kick the absolute you know what out of these kids. 713. Smokey14 posted: 11.19.2015 - 7:46 pm Rate this comment: (4) (1) "And while we are talking about "weapons" and "menaces", what about Tony? He has intentionally wrecked people at dangerous high speed tracks like Daytona and Pocono while bragging about causing those wrecks, wrecked himself trying to wreck Kyle Busch at high speed Vegas. And then is praised as a "garage leader" by today's drivers. What a joke. That is why these drivers are running fans off by the minute. Then Tony goes dirt track racing, breaks a 19 year old girl's back, shatters his own leg, then KILLS somebody by swerving at him while he was on foot gesturing at him after being wrecked. He isn't just a menace and a danger, he is DEADLY." Got to love Earnhardt fans. Every driver is a homicidal maniac except their precious Dale who was a saint and never did anything wrong. 714. MAR posted: 11.19.2015 - 7:58 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) @712 so what you're basically saying is blaney has no talent and he's just benefitting from penske's equipment? Cause if that's what your saying then maybe you should watch the races a little more. 715. Matt Fink posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) No talent is not what I said, some of these people coming into Cup are just so so overrated in my opinion. FYI I rarely miss a race, and when I do, it is a Truck race. I don't want to start an argument, just want to hear otherS opinions on NASCAR's future. :) 716. I Lost My Name posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:05 pm Rate this comment: (5) (6) @690. "Tony Stewart is fully responsible for Ward getting killed that night. Tony's ego killed that boy that night. "I'm Tony Stewart, who are you to be saying or motioning to me that I did anything wrong. He revved up his engine when he was about to go by and when he did that his tires clipped Ward" A grand jury found that Stewart would not face trail. This means that there was no evidence to prove any wrongdoing. People who understand the law would realize that grand juries tends to find almost every case should go to trail if there is even the slightest bit of evidence. No offense but I tend to side with a grand jury as opposed to a random poster on a website. 717. 88&4Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:09 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Can we PLEASE stop arguing about Tony Stewart? This got old a year ago. I'd almost rather talk about politics. From now on, I won't acknowledge any other comments regarding this idiotic "argument" that is NOT going to change anyone's opinion. If you want further proof, just look on Tony's driver page. 718. Matt Fink posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:12 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) #717, I must say that I agree. 719. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) "while Cogan wasn't a great driver or anything, I never heard anything about him causing carnage on a constant basis (again I haven't watched most of the '80s CART races, so maybe if I do, I'll come to a different conclusion)." Go do some research. He wrecked more than just the time he took out the two biggest legends in Indy car history. The Stenhouse reference was because how much he wrecked. It was a lot, especially early in his career. The Cogan reference was because of Irvan doing his best to be a legend killer. Pun intended. Irvan did have talent, he had the potential to be great, however, he didn't reach his potential because of driving like a maniac and he never truly realized that he was a maniac. He hurt a lot of people including himself before and after his 1994 crash. He wasn't consistent enough to ever be considered great and/or ever to be a champion. He never was at anytime during his career the best driver out there. I don't think he was ever in the top 5 either. However, he did drive for the best team late in 1993 and 2/3 of 1994. The 28 car from 1991-1994 was the best car out there, different circumstances kept them from winning, they just didn't have the best driver at anytime except for maybe '92 and that's debatable. "Curtis Turner, Junior Johnson, Kyle Busch, Geoff Bodine, Paul Tracy, Alex Zanardi, Michael Andretti or drivers like that who dominated but were also wildly inconsistent and way oevrdrove would make more sense." They would run circles around Ernie Irvan in equal cars. Ernie was lucky to win the Daytona 500 that he did. He got off to a horrible restart and Dale got a good one and Ernie and the pack drafted up to Dale and Ernie blew by him. "I'm surprised you didn't make a Jimmy Spencer comparison." It's funny you brought up Spencer and I'm glad you did. Jimmy won his only two races by passing Ernie on the last lap at Daytona and late in the race at Talladega in 1994. "Mr. Excitement" put a dirty move on Irvan on the last lap at Daytona in which I would think that would be one of the many low points of Ernie's career. That had to have been embarrassing. 720. Tyson posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:21 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Man it sure is too bad Matt Fink has no clue what he's talking about. Blaney proved his worth to get the rides he's gotten. He won a race in K&N West competition driving for his dad and Tommy Baldwin - pretty bad equipment compared to the McAnally cars, Pursley, and the Bruncati cars (#6 and 9). From there, he ran a couple races in Nationwide with Tommy Baldwin, scoring a few top-10 finishes which attracted the attention of Roger Penske and BKR. Blaney had no ties to them beforehand and brought no sponsorship. He simply got the ride because of his talent. I'm sure his dad's name helped him, but it certainly didn't get him the spot. He's done fantastic with BKR and Penske since joining them, and has done quite well with the Wood Brothers this year, despite a lot of bad luck and what seems to be an engine failure every couple races. 721. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:22 pm Rate this comment: (1) (2) 88&4. I am glad to know that you won't be commenting on the subject. I was thinking we were all allowed to state our views. From now on I will ask you what topic you would like me to talk about and what my opinion should be. 722. Ryan W posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:26 pm Rate this comment: (1) (4) "to love Earnhardt fans. Every driver is a homicidal maniac except their precious Dale who was a saint and never did anything wrong. " He never killed anyone or about killed anyone, most of his aggression was on the smaller tracks where he was at disadvantage with not having the better engines and cars and people like to bring up the '93 Winston 500 when Rusty had his spectacular crash, but 1) they should have never put them in a position to have a two lap shootout. Earnhardt's pass of Rusty should have been the race when it started to sprinkle and 2) if you closely look at the replay Earnhardt had a run on Rusty and Rusty slightly came down on him. 723. Sean posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) ""Mr. Excitement" put a dirty move on Irvan on the last lap at Daytona in which I would think that would be one of the many low points of Ernie's career. That had to have been embarrassing." No, because he had a blatantly illegal intake manifold. NASCAR turned a blind eye because McDonald's was planning to leave NASCAR as a sponsor and NASCAR wanted them to remain in the fold, so after Spencer's two cheated up wins in the #27, McDonald's remained in the sport and became Elliott's sponsor. I assume Spencer had the same illegal equipment in the 1994 spring race as well, where Earnhardt and Irvan both beat him, considering he had only one top ten (a 10th place I think) and one pole position besides his three restrictor plate top fives (two of which we know were cheated, and probably all three). Brett Bodine attempted to use the Junior Johnson equipment from the previous year on the plate tracks and got busted hard, which I think proves this point. I just mentioned Spencer because you were mentioning a bunch of other greatly inferior drivers who were wildly aggressive. I'll grant Turner, Johnson, and Michael Andretti over Irvan, but not so sure I'd argue for G. Bodine, Tracy, or Zanardi over him. Bodine was even less consistent than Irvan, Tracy only dominated when he was driving for Penske/Newman-Haas and those were the only competitive teams (in the years leading up to the split) or after most of the other elite CART talents left (in the split-era CART heyday of 1996-2001 he was pretty freaking inconsistent, and way overshadowed by Dario at Team Green), Zanardi only ever won in the absolute best cars (when he had weaker cars, Tony Kanaan destroyed him in IndyCar and Ralf (the Lesser) Schumacher destroyed him in F1). 724. Sean posted: 11.19.2015 - 8:43 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) And Irvan not a top five driver in 1993-1994? If you want to say Earnhardt, Wallace, and Martin were better, fine. But who are your 4th and 5th? I'd put Irvan equal with Martin in 3rd in that period and think there's a HUGE drop from 4th to anybody else (uh, Bodine I guess?) 725. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:05 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Like Sean said, the 27 car had an illegal intake manifold to keep McDonald's in. Junior Johnson himself has admitted that the cars were illegal, which does embarrass Irvan at all, it embarrasses Spencer since doesn't have one win with a legal car to his name. 21 years later, Martinsville 2 weeks ago was the closest Mickey D's has gotten to victory lane again. 726. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:06 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) *doesn't 727. The Long Shot posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:17 pm Rate this comment: (5) (0) "Tony definitely revved his engine, I'm surprised by how many people ignore this fact. He's proven over the years that he's a morally questionable human being and I don't think he's worth the defense so many seem so quick to give him. Still, Kevin made a series of stupid decisions and ultimately, he wouldn't have died if he didn't get out of his car and walk on the track. At best, Tony made no effort to avoid hitting him, but Kevin only has himself to blame for even being in that position." *sigh* why am I taking the bait...whatever... Tony did not rev his engine; the lone camera that caught the incident was from the other side of the track, where other cars were passing in front of the camera at that exact moment. Didn't avoid hitting him? I doubt he even saw him until the last second. The only people calling for Stewart's head are those with some sort of prior vendetta against him. That's just the truth. I count only one incident that I would consider "morally questionable" on his part prior to and including that (wrecking Kenseth at Daytona); anything else is a stretch. 728. The Long Shot posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:20 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Can we PLEASE stop arguing about Tony Stewart? This got old a year ago. I'd almost rather talk about politics. From now on, I won't acknowledge any other comments regarding this idiotic "argument" that is NOT going to change anyone's opinion. If you want further proof, just look on Tony's driver page." Damn. Props, dude. Way to take a stand. 729. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.19.2015 - 9:57 pm Rate this comment: (6) (9) Every other car was puttering around under caution holding a line except Tony who goes from one car width off the bottom to almost hitting the outside wall after killing Kevin. And you can see his wheels turned towards the right. Plus somebody's engine magically revs up exactly when Tony takes his adventure from the bottom to the top of the track. 730. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "most of his aggression was on the smaller tracks where he was at a disadvantage" While it's safer than other tracks, people have gotten seriously injured before on short tracks (Does Jerry Nadeau ring a bell?) And because he had an equipment disadvantage it was more acceptable for him to do it than anyone else? Brilliant logic. You don't see guys like Almirola and McMurray bumping their way to a win (despite obvious equipment disadvantages), do you? 731. Smiff_2 posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:20 pm Rate this comment: (2) (1) In all honesty, although his car may have been illegal, Spencer definitely, at the very least, *worked* for that win in Daytona. He spent many laps slowly setting up the run down the banking off of 2 and in the end, timed it to perfection. I'm not trying to say Spencer was better than he was, I dunno....I just always found the setup to that pass cool to watch develop. 732. Jason Gilstrap posted: 11.19.2015 - 10:31 pm Rate this comment: (4) (4) If you watch the last few laps of the 1994 Winston 500 you can see Spencer has a super fast car. But he tried to out draft Earnhardt which is like having the ball on the one yard line in the Super Bowl with Beast Mode as your RB, and throwing a dumbass slant pass. 733. racefangurl posted: 11.20.2015 - 12:21 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Next year is Tony Stewart's last year, so why talk about him? 734. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 1:55 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 721 wasn't me, someone else put my name in there... coward 735. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 2:29 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The only people calling for Stewart's head are those with some sort of prior vendetta against him. That's just the truth. I count only one incident that I would consider "morally questionable" on his part prior to and including that (wrecking Kenseth at Daytona); anything else is a stretch. I don't have a vendetta against him. A lot of people feel that he was responsible. I agree with DSFF/JG. 736. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 2:48 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) "While it's safer than other tracks, people have gotten seriously injured before on short tracks (Does Jerry Nadeau ring a bell?) And because he had an equipment disadvantage it was more acceptable for him to do it than anyone else? Brilliant logic. You don't see guys like Almirola and McMurray bumping their way to a win (despite obvious equipment disadvantages), do you?" Some people over exaggerate and think Dale won all of his 76 races by wrecking someone 500% of the time to win them. He could race aggressive because his car was built bullet proof in the 80's. Richmond, Waltrip, and Allison all raced aggressive then. That's when racing was racin'! Almirola and McMurray? Now that's brilliant. "In all honesty, although his car may have been illegal, Spencer definitely, at the very least, *worked* for that win in Daytona. He spent many laps slowly setting up the run down the banking off of 2 and in the end, timed it to perfection. I'm not trying to say Spencer was better than he was, I dunno....I just always found the setup to that pass cool to watch develop." I agree. I went back and watched it. It was very awesome. It's just hard to believe Spencer was able to do that and I don't even like him. He set up that pass like a veteran driver would who had won a lot. I didn't think he had the talent to do that illegal intake manifold or not... It's hard to believe that the 28 car didn't win a plate race in '94, but I guess you have to consider who was driving. "If you want to say Earnhardt, Wallace, and Martin were better, fine. But who are your 4th and 5th? I'd put Irvan equal with Martin in 3rd in that period and think there's a HUGE drop from 4th to anybody else (uh, Bodine I guess?)" 1. Earnhardt 2. Wallace 3. Martin 4. G. Bodine 5. Jeff Gordon (yes a young Jeff Gordon was better at this time period. Sadly the best Brickyard race was the first. That's when the aero package wasn't a major factor like it became the next year. Gordon made Ernie eat his tires up in that race.) 6. I would even possibly put Ricky Rudd here. Ernie raced for the best team/cars at the time. "If you watch the last few laps of the 1994 Winston 500 you can see Spencer has a super fast car. But he tried to out draft Earnhardt which is like having the ball on the one yard line in the Super Bowl with Beast Mode as your RB, and throwing a dumbass slant pass." Yea he drove like an idiot at the end of that race, and Dale even commented in victory lane about it after the race. Good comparison. 737. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 2:52 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Martin Truex has a chance to win the championship with a single car team in the fabricated Chase Sunday. Can anyone guess the last time a driver won the championship with a single car team??? 738. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2015 - 4:41 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Can anyone guess the last time a driver won the championship with a single car team???" 94 - Earnhardt? 739. Alex posted: 11.20.2015 - 5:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) As I have said time and again, leave the arguing about physics to those who actually have a deep, thorough understanding of the subject. It was this way with Deflategate, and it's apparently STILL happening with Tony Stewart. I know none of you here are physicists in any sense, so just shut the hell up. The same could be said about other topics that I shan't list but have been frequently discussed here in recent months. 740. I Lost My Name posted: 11.20.2015 - 6:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 88&4Fan. So i post my first comment and you (and others) pretty much tell me i am not allowed to discuss this topic because you dont like it? Is that your special way of saying welcome? Also you do all realize that by saying "i am not gonna comment" 20 times that you are actually commenting? Ironic. From now on I will discuss any racing related topic i decide. Even if a 15 year old does not agree. 741. Alex posted: 11.20.2015 - 8:03 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) ^I am not certain about that, but I will gladly tell you that you aren't allowed to discuss a topic you have no knowledge of. I could spend the time to explain the physics to you, but I don't want to waste that many years putting you through the education necessary. 742. I Lost My Name posted: 11.20.2015 - 8:50 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Alex. I don't pretend to be a physics expert such as yourself. I was not taking about physics. I was talking about law. Law is something I do know about. It's interesting that it would take u years to explain physics. Also yes I am allowed to discuss physics if wanted too. I am not here to argue but some people here seem to enjoy it. 743. 88&4Fan posted: 11.20.2015 - 9:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "88&4Fan. So i post my first comment and you (and others) pretty much tell me i am not allowed to discuss this topic because you dont like it? Is that your special way of saying welcome?" Exactly why I'm not getting involved in this. And no, saying I'm not going to comment on the topic is NOT the same as commenting on the topic, and you saying it is is pure Yahoo.com-esque right there. In fact, your name... "I lost my name"??? Funny, I've never seen ANYONE by that name ever post here before. This was a really good debate about different drivers and where they rank historically and then you all had to bring up an incident that happened an entire year ago that people are not going to agree on, and look what happened. Here's just some of the highly intellectual comments since then: "I am glad to know that you won't be commenting on the subject. I was thinking we were all allowed to state our views. From now on I will ask you what topic you would like me to talk about and what my opinion should be." "Got to love Earnhardt fans. Every driver is a homicidal maniac except their precious Dale who was a saint and never did anything wrong." "721 wasn't me, someone else put my name in there... coward" "Alex. I don't pretend to be a physics expert such as yourself." "From now on I will discuss any racing related topic i decide. Even if a 15 year old does not agree." Oh by the way its 17 thanks, but that really doesn't matter when I'm acting much more adult-like than any of you right now. And the fact that you're trying to use my age against me is just another reason why you need to take your idiocy back to Yahoo. 744. I Lost My Name posted: 11.20.2015 - 10:05 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) 88&4 Wow, kid just relax. It's not that serious! Sorry if my comment upset u that much. Like I said it was my first so that why u haven't seen the name. 745. racefangurl posted: 11.20.2015 - 10:12 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) So, where does Tony Stewart rank on the greatest drivers list? If we must talk about Tony Stewart, it should be that way. 746. TS1420 posted: 11.20.2015 - 10:19 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) "Every other car was puttering around under caution holding a line except Tony who goes from one car width off the bottom to almost hitting the outside wall after killing Kevin. And you can see his wheels turned towards the right. Plus somebody's engine magically revs up exactly when Tony takes his adventure from the bottom to the top of the track." The only thing "magical" is your understanding of what happened. The 45 car barely missed Kevin Ward Jr and Ward had to jump back from it. Then he continues on further into the racing groove after the 45 goes by and in front of Tony who comes into the frame already running a bit higher than the 45. Tony's car doesn't turn until Ward is under his car basically acting as a speed-bump on an already slick track. And the engine rev doesn't happen until Tony was literally right on top of him, if the rev even came from his car at all (all the audible sounds were coming from cars on the frontstraight close to the grandstands. For example, engines running up to full-speed then slowing going into the turn but nothing from cars exciting the turn and the wreck isn't even audible). "Next year is Tony Stewart's last year, so why talk about him?" I guess we should just stop talking about Jeff Gordon too if that's the case. 747. Tylor Thaber posted: 11.20.2015 - 10:40 am Rate this comment: (2) (0) Are we still talking about the Kevin Ward accident? Then I'll give my input. Ward shouldn't have been in the middle of the racing line. I'm not sure what was going through Tony's head but I know for certain it wasn't anything more than, 'Oh, I'll scare this kid a bit', if it was even that. Ward walked into the racing line, and Tony couldn't see where he was. Even if Tony was trying to scare him, Ward caused his own demise. It's like if someone's holding up a gun, and you start punching him, and while doing so strike the gun, causing it to go off and kill you. And no, I didn't say anything as to why he's got the gun. 748. 88&4Fan posted: 11.20.2015 - 10:41 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) 744- You know what, whatever. If you want to keep arguing about something that is only going to make people angry and not change anyone's opinion, so be it. I just won't be any part of it. This is my last comment on the matter and I mean it this time. 749. pimmy posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:21 am Rate this comment: (1) (0) To get this line of discussion back on track, Ryan Blaney & the Wood Brothers will be running full-time next year. 750. David posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:28 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "To get this line of discussion back on track, Ryan Blaney & the Wood Brothers will be running full-time next year." Where did you find this? This is significant news. 751. pimmy posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:37 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) From motorsport.com. There should be an official announcement at Homestead later today. 752. Canadianfan posted: 11.20.2015 - 12:29 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) They just mentioned it during practice. Press conference later today. Way to go Ryan and the Wood Brothers. I predict between 17th and 20th in points next year for the #21 car. 753. Smiff_2 posted: 11.20.2015 - 12:51 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Call me crazy if you want, but in all honesty, if his engines hold up throughout the year, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Blaney contending for a Chase spot in 2016. Now, I'm not saying he'll necessarily WIN a race next year (although I also wouldn't be shocked if he did), I'm certain he'll have the speed. The only question is whether or not he'll getting equipment that's totally equal to Brad's and Joey's. 754. Canadianfan posted: 11.20.2015 - 12:55 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) I hope I am wrong too. I would love to see him make the chase. 755. Spen posted: 11.20.2015 - 4:42 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Okay, this one's gonna be big. I'm going to try to talk about (most) of the major threads of the last 250-odd posts, since I actually have a little time to type. Sean @ 553: "No NASCAR points format will properly weight top finishes. They just don't believe in it and never have and I don't really get it. Only the 1974 points system even came close to accomplishing that, and that was badly flawed as well." Actually, the original system from 49-51 (and the various modifications on it in 52, 54, 63 and 66) gave a pretty hard weight towards top finishes. While the exact amounts varied based on race purse, first place awarded twice as many points as sixth, with second to fifth getting however many points needed to achieve that outcome evenly, tenth place getting one-tenth of whatever first got, and eleventh on back getting only nominal points, and none at all after a certain point. Plus, relief drivers were scored points depending on how much of the race they completed (a rule I would love to see enforced later on: no offense to any potential fans of his, but I don't think Eddie Bierschwale really deserved 139 points for running three laps at Daytona '89.) Minus the bonus points, and the whole not treating races equally thing, this isn't too far off from your ideal system. I think it says something that from 49-67 F1 points and NASCAR points only gave a different champion four times. "People who like the Latford points system REALLY don't see how bad it was." I know that I can come off as being someone who likes the Latford system thanks to my "Latfordization" project, but that's mainly because I wanted to more easily compare seasons relative to each other, and that's less work if you go with the format that 36 out of 67 years already go by. But I agree that it's a flawed system (though vastly superior to the chase). I like your idea of only giving lead lap bonuses to those who lead for 10% or more. The "Where Kevin Harvick stands historically" debate: I believe Harvick is an extremely talented driver, with a knack for avoiding trouble he doesn't specifically want to be in. *But* there is a really big "but". For the first 9 years of his career, he ran well when the team was good overall, but totally threw in the towel whenever things weren't going so well. (There is zero excuse for trailing Jeff Green and Robby Gordon in 2002.) Sometime around 2011 he seemed to finally figure out how to make a 10th place car finish better, and my opinion of him started rising. But now that he's with SHR, he seems to think that the car should be able to carry itself to victory every week, and he'll find any scapegoat possible for every race he throws away. Fortunately for him, the current point system favors inconsistency. While I might be able to buy him ahead of Jarrett or Martin, I would not rank him ahead of Wallace, Elliott or Kenseth. Matt's the closest call, but regardless of one's opinions of his recent actions, the fact remains that in sixteen full seasons, he has never once finished outside the top-15. He simply doesn't say "screw this whole season" the way Kevin has on multiple occasions. "That is ALMOST as bad as cjs ranking Pearson 7th all time." Where is Cjs anyway? We need him to explain how this whole debate can be tied in with an Indy 500 from some year. Anyway, I kind of saw where he was coming from in his argument. There were certainly a fair number of "won by default" races in Pearson's career. The same can be said for Petty, but he has a huge cushion. You can take away every under-200 mile race win in Petty's career, and he still has 115 wins. Doing a similar thing for Pearson leaves him with 57. And of those 57, he won a fair number by being the only competitive car left. Ernie Irvan: My opinion of Ernie can be summed up like this: Ernie was a fantastic racer. But he wasn't a great driver. There's a subtle difference. For contrast, look at someone like Casey Mears or Paul Menard, who are perfectly serviceable drivers, but terrible racers. While I love Ernie, and I would indeed take him over Davey, Jeff Burton and possibly Bodine, I would not take him over Gant or Labonte. David: Thanks for giving Bobby Allison some love. Sean again: I know you consider your comparison of Junior to Newman as mistake/low blow, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that there's some justification for that. Both Junior and Newman got off to great starts. Both of them went through a lengthy period of being irrelevant. Actually, from 2005-2011 Newman won four times, while Junior only won three. plus, Junior's worst years were worse than Newman's worst. And in those two years where Newman was outside the top-15, his championship winning teammate was barely outrunning him. While Junior ran 25th with his teammates (including Newman) finishing 1-2-3-5-10 The main difference is that because Junior is Junior, he was given extra chances that another driver with similar results would not have had. So now Junior's in career renaissance mode, while Newman is staying irrelevant. Plus, take away plate tracks, and they both have 16 wins. "but you're definitely right he [Junior] outperformed when they were at Hendrick together." Bzzzt - Wrong! They were teammates from 2009-2013. In that period of 178 races: Head-to-Head: Newman: 94 Junior: 84 Wins: Newman: 4 Junior: 1 Top 5's: Newman: 30 Junior: 29 Top 10's: Newman: 78 Junior: 67 Average finish: Newman: 15.0 Junior: 16.0 The only thing Junior leads him in is lead laps, with 1083 compared to Newman's 847. "I tend to focus on peak season performance rather than steady performance over a career" This is something we disagree on. Short-term dominance is usually caused by a particular car design or rules package that favors your driving style. Look at Bobby Isaac, who got 28 of his 37 wins with the winged Dodge Daytona. Or Richmond, who excelled with the sloped Monte Carlo, but struggled with Blue Max, who instantly ran better with unproven Rusty Wallace. Adaptability counts. Whatever rules we have this year will not last, and you have to be able to cope when things change. For extreme examples of not coping, look at Richard Childress or Reed Sorenson. Both solidly midpack contenders with occasional flashes of competitiveness while driving their preferred car type, and both totally out to lunch once the cars changed. Therefore, I'm more impressed by a Terry Labonte who wins at the same track (which has been redesigned) 23 years later with a vastly changed car style, than a Richmond type. But that's just me. And I can't find the comment just now, but you said something about Kyle going winless as an owner-driver, while the likes of Joe Nemechek won under the same situation. While that is true, don't forget that Joe's team was winless for their first two years. Had Kyle stuck it out longer, he probably would have started winning, though not at his normal levels. And of course, his ego can't stand the thought of not getting his precious "200 NASCAR wins", so he called it quits. 756. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "For the first 9 years of his career, he ran well when the team was good overall, but totally threw in the towel whenever things weren't going so well. (There is zero excuse for trailing Jeff Green and Robby Gordon in 2002.) Sometime around 2011 he seemed to finally figure out how to make a 10th place car finish better, and my opinion of him started rising." Not many have done more with less. He won many races in between 2002-2007 that was a 5th-10th place car. You guys have to remember too that most of his success in 2001 was because most of his cars were set up for Dale and he really didn't have a chance to learn how to set up his car and probably didn't understand the Winston Cup cars at the time because he was thrown in at RCR because of the Earnhardt tragedy. I could see then a "sophomore slump" coming just because he was inexperienced in trying to help sett up a car to his liking. "But now that he's with SHR, he seems to think that the car should be able to carry itself to victory every week, and he'll find any scapegoat possible for every race he throws away. Fortunately for him, the current point system favors inconsistency." He would currently be leading the Winston Cup Standings which rewards consistency. Last year and this year he had some bad luck in why he didn't win for one reason or the other, like this particular race. "That is ALMOST as bad as cjs ranking Pearson 7th all time." Where is Cjs anyway? We need him to explain how this whole debate can be tied in with an Indy 500 from some year. Anyway, I kind of saw where he was coming from in his argument. There were certainly a fair number of "won by default" races in Pearson's career. The same can be said for Petty, but he has a huge cushion. You can take away every under-200 mile race win in Petty's career, and he still has 115 wins. Doing a similar thing for Pearson leaves him with 57. And of those 57, he won a fair number by being the only competitive car left." They used to race 60 races a year. If Pearson and Yarborough actually race full seasons Petty doesn't get 200 wins. Maybe 175, Yarborough 100+, Pearson more than likely 125+... "Ernie Irvan: My opinion of Ernie can be summed up like this: Ernie was a fantastic racer. But he wasn't a great driver. There's a subtle difference. For contrast, look at someone like Casey Mears or Paul Menard, who are perfectly serviceable drivers, but terrible racers. While I love Ernie, and I would indeed take him over Davey, Jeff Burton and possibly Bodine, I would not take him over Gant or Labonte." I wouldn't take him over Davey, Bodine, Gant or either Labonte. Ernie definitely had the balls, the problem was most of the time his balls took a hold of the wheel and not his hands. 757. Sean posted: 11.20.2015 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Okay, I want to do this before qualifying is over. "Actually, the original system from 49-51 (and the various modifications on it in 52, 54, 63 and 66) gave a pretty hard weight towards top finishes. While the exact amounts varied based on race purse, first place awarded twice as many points as sixth, with second to fifth getting however many points needed to achieve that outcome evenly, tenth place getting one-tenth of whatever first got, and eleventh on back getting only nominal points, and none at all after a certain point. Plus, relief drivers were scored points depending on how much of the race they completed (a rule I would love to see enforced later on: no offense to any potential fans of his, but I don't think Eddie Bierschwale really deserved 139 points for running three laps at Daytona '89.)" I'm relatively unaware of all those early points systems although I would like to understand them because there's little information available on the Internet about them and even my Greg Fielden "Forty Years of Stock Car Racing" books (while they frequently said who the points leader was along with their point total they rarely listed the actual points systems for the pre-modern era years, so one has to reconstruct them from scratch; for anything partially based on winnings as I know many of those points systems were, it can be even harder since you'd have to do considerable research finding out what all the contingency awards were for a race, which is pretty hard to do prior to the '90s when they were mentioned in the NASCAR Preview and Press Guides). I do think they probably rewarded performance better but based on what you've said about how certain races were weighted, I think the weights of certain races were too extreme. Okay, I can understand 500-mile races being weighted over the standard 200-lap/100-mile dirt track race (the 'cookie-cutter' of the '50s/'60s) but the main difference really is the depth of the field, not the race distance. If the fields for a 100 mile race were as deep as the early Southern 500s, they would be just as difficult to win, so while I can see the marquee races weighted more in that era to reflect the depth of the field, they were harder to win more because of their much deeper fields than because they were longer, and as a result probably were weighted too much, but that applied largely across the board as Tom Sneva had a winless IndyCar championship in 1978 solely because he was consistent in the 500-milers and fairly consistent in the 'minor' races as well, while Al Unser swept the 500-milers and was wildly inconsistent everywhere else, and Danny Ongais was the most dominant in the minor races, but struggled to finish any of the marquee ones. The weights for individual races had some logic but were too extreme. Double race points in F1 or IndyCar NOW however are ludicrous as the field essentially doesn't change (yeah, the Indy 500 always has more starters, but does the addition of decent/not great/past their prime drivers like Hildebrand, Servia, Tagliani, Bell, etc... really add something at this point relative to the other races? Not double for sure.) FIRMLY agree with you on in-race substitutions. I was actually shocked when I read in the Greg Fielden modern era book that Terry Labonte was injured early in the 1987 season, pulled into the pits on the pace lap in two consecutive races and was relieved by Geoff Bodine. Yet even though he didn't even START the races somehow he got points for them and got those credited toward his consecutive starts streak? That convinced me the consecutive starts streak should have been Earnhardt's, not Labonte's. Now Gordon who was relieved only once or twice in his entire career that I can recall has claimed the record rendering all that a moot point. "But I agree that it's a flawed system (though vastly superior to the chase)." I wasn't even talking about you here. I was talking about the many people who think that drivers who win championships with that format are clutch and those who miss out are somehow not, basically anybody who actually thinks Terry Labonte outperformed Jeff Gordon in 1996 for example, and I don't think you would say that. Really, Means over Earnhardt? It's laughable. But yes, the Chase is more laughable. "Fortunately for him, the current point system favors inconsistency" No. Winning is everything, but consistency clearly matters far too much if you don't win (since 43-1 is even more insanely geared toward consistency than the previous points system for anyone finishing 2nd or worst). Hence you get Jeff Gordon not advancing and Denny Hamlin not advancing despite the fact that both of their best two finishes were better than most of the others solely due to one bad finish. By having only three-race rounds quirky stuff will happen (I mean Michael Waltrip and Mike Skinner and Lake Speed led in points at about that point in the season too...) Winning matters the most, but consistency will always carry you forward. Fortunately for Harvick, he is very good at doing both when needed and I agree his failing is extreme inconsistency when he has weak cars (I agree Kenseth's main strength is his ability to avoid mistakes and that even his weak seasons are never truly bad, which only Gordon and Johnson really share). And considering Kenseth has won the most races twice with two different teams over a decade apart while I'm pretty sure Harvick has never led the series in wins yet (I think this is correct, but I tend to remember the most recent seasons less since I'm less entertained by them), you have a point there. Wallace is a no-brainer. Elliott I would take over Harvick, but I do have to wonder about the supposed 7/8 scale cars he had in 1985, and that is what gives me pause. Harvick over Jarrett most likely. "Ernie was a fantastic racer. But he wasn't a great driver. There's a subtle difference." Yes, it took me forever (like until maybe a couple years ago) to understand what people meant by this distinction. Drivers like Johnny Benson, Bryan Herta, Martin Truex, Jr. were the epitome of being much better drivers than racers. They had consistent speed and very rarely made mistakes (sure, some seasons they had faster cars than others, which explained their career ups and downs) but invariably lost when they had to duel with someone (I was actually amazed Benson *won* a duel eventually after I'd been picking him to be the next first time winner for like 5 years before that except maybe in the Stewart/Kenseth/Junior period, but he was racing Mark Martin, an elite version of this particular phenomenon, who was also not really known as a duelist, and who also lost more duels than he should have with his ability). Like you know if Alex Zanardi had tried that move at Laguna Seca on somebody other than Bryan Herta (practically ANYONE else, but let's just say Michael Andretti or Paul Tracy) more likely they both end up crashing. So yeah, *now* I get it. Irvan is I guess a stellar example of the alternative (an inconsistent but extremely good duelist) but I'd still say great driver, greater racer, which is kind of the flip side of Mark Martin at the same time. I happen to think drivers who are greater duelists but often have worse finishes are undervalued while more consistent drivers who benefit from strategy or luck giving them the lead (as B. Labonte and Newman especially have done) are overvalued, but I make the other case too extremely. 758. Sean posted: 11.20.2015 - 7:15 pm Rate this comment: (0) (2) "Bzzzt - Wrong! They were teammates from 2009-2013. In that period of 178 races:" Not a period I rate very highly or care much about so I haven't really looked at this, but I can say neither of them were impressing me then, and while Junior has started winning again, MOST of his post-2004 non-plate wins have been similarly fortunate to Newman's. Chicago 2005 - stayed out of the pits in an aero-push race when nobody could pass; Michigan 2008 - allowed to pass the pace car under caution; Pocono 2014 - inherited the lead when Brad Keselowski intentionally let him past to clear debris off his grill; Martinsville 2014 - a rather crass bump-and-run; Phoenix 2015 - won due to a scoring loop in the pits. That's pretty similar luck to what Newman had I guess. You're right, I should have stuck my ground on that one, but after Aaron said I didn't know what I was talking about, I went irrational and dug myself deeper. I suppose Kahne and Marlin may have been going too far there. Surprised nobody really called me on the Marlin comparison (even though I don't really think he was better/worse than B. Labonte personally). "This is something we disagree on." Oh, not entirely. Longevity matters, which is one of the main reasons B. Labonte is not close to T. Labonte and Rudd (who he has similar objective stats to). I agree Gant > Irvan. I think Gant's equipment was on average worse yet he did on average better with it. He was a lot more consistent in his good seasons in general without being much less dominant and Irvan's greater versatility is not enough to make the difference here. I agree Irvan/Bodine is a wash as their profiles are eerily similar. I lean toward Irvan because he did it in less time. So really the only debate is Irvan v. T. Labonte. I certainly respect Terry's longevity and ability to do things for a variety of teams, some of which weren't that strong, but he just feels like Rudd, a 6th-10th place driver most seasons who happened to get a couple titles when maybe he was like the 4th best driver due to his consistency, and I think Irvan actually had more arguable top five seasons, but the longevity gap may not be enough to justify that, especially when Irvan's best seasons on RECORD don't look much better than Labonte's (because '94 wasn't finished). I'm probably considering too much what-if there. I know when it comes to the Baseball Hall of Fame, people don't do this. Roger Maris isn't inducted despite one of the all-time great seasons. However, other Halls of Fame do. The Beach Boys had some of the best albums ("Pet Sounds") and some of the worst ("Summer in Paradise") leading to wild fluctuations in quality, while a band like Rush who has been consistently good with many more good albums is never rated as highly because they don't have some peak considered 'one of the best albums of all time'. (See also Nirvana vs. Pearl Jam, etc...not that I even think there's a large difference between "Nevermind" and "Ten" in quality, but whatever...) I was probably thinking from this sort of perspective, but yes, sports are different from art... And it's not like Irvan's knockout seasons were anything like say Bobby Isaac's. I agree with you Isaac is overrated but more due to the shallowness of the field than his short career peak. I think Isaac would have kept dominating into the '70s if the Krauskopf team hadn't been constantly fighting with NASCAR over rule regulations. "Whatever rules we have this year will not last, and you have to be able to cope when things change." Agree with that, in general. For drivers like B. Labonte who have a sudden career falloff (with no injury or adversity), that is a major bad sign. I also prefer longevity in general, but do err on the side of dominance when deciding between a more dominant driver with a shortened career and a more consistent driver with a lengthy one. "you said something about Kyle going winless as an owner-driver, while the likes of Joe Nemechek won under the same situation. While that is true, don't forget that Joe's team was winless for their first two years. Had Kyle stuck it out longer, he probably would have started winning, though not at his normal levels." I don't remember that, but I do make arguments like that. Honestly, one of my big arguments against Davey Allison is that he went career-winless in Busch when lots of drivers considered losers in Cup could win prolifically in similar equipment (Nemechek - maybe not justified, Spencer, M. Waltrip). Of course I'd rate Davey over all those people, but I do wonder how he went winless in a fairly sizable number of starts there... 759. Sean posted: 11.20.2015 - 7:17 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Oh, and Spen, tell me what year you last completed with regard to your Latfordization. Since I have my own website, I can query my own database and get you all the remaining years through 1974 probably in less than an hour and save you a bunch of time. 760. Ryan W posted: 11.20.2015 - 7:48 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Fortunately for Harvick, he is very good at doing both when needed and I agree his failing is extreme inconsistency when he has weak cars (I agree Kenseth's main strength is his ability to avoid mistakes and that even his weak seasons are never truly bad, which only Gordon and Johnson really share" You're right. Last year he HAD to win at Phoenix AND Homestead and this year he HAD to win at Dover... a track that he never won at. "Wallace is a no-brainer. Elliott I would take over Harvick, but I do have to wonder about the supposed 7/8 scale cars he had in 1985, and that is what gives me pause. Harvick over Jarrett most likely." Harvick has been the best overall driver since 2010. Neither Elliott or Wallace can say that over that long of a time period. You're right, it's a no-brainer (especially the cars that they had). Bill choked 1985 and 1992 away. Rusty should have won more races and possibly another championship, even though he had no business winning 1989. Jarrett was a big race driver and did what he had to do in big time races. He put the pressure on Ernie in '96 at Indy and made him fold and he passed a young Jeff Gordon and Dale Earnhardt on the last lap of the Daytona 500 in 1993 (even though Dale had an ill-handling car). Jarrett was in some superior cars late in his career, however. "Like you know if Alex Zanardi had tried that move at Laguna Seca on somebody other than Bryan Herta (practically ANYONE else, but let's just say Michael Andretti or Paul Tracy) more likely they both end up crashing" I think he would have passed anyone in the world on that move. I didn't like him, but he was the best then. 761. Aaron posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:05 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) "Chicago 2005 - stayed out of the pits in an aero-push race when nobody could pass; Michigan 2008 - allowed to pass the pace car under caution; Pocono 2014 - inherited the lead when Brad Keselowski intentionally let him past to clear debris off his grill; Martinsville 2014 - a rather crass bump-and-run; Phoenix 2015 - won due to a scoring loop in the pits. That's pretty similar luck to what Newman had I guess." Chicago 2005 - everybody had the same chance to pit and take two tires if they wanted. Dale Jr.'s team was smart enough to do it, and Kenseth/Stewart wasn't. That's not luck. That's strategy. If it was anyone else, you'd credit the crew chief and stop there. Junior didn't stay out. Hmiel made a great pit call. Michigan 2008 - luck. Had the caution not came out, he runs out. Pocono 2014 - Please. Gordon, Johnson, Kyle Busch, everyone's put themselves in a place to take advantage of a leader's decision/mistake. Martinsville 2014 - "rather crass." Yeah, totally unbiased. Crass. That's a joke. Fresh tires over worn tires and a slight door-bump is crass. Laughable. You make it sound like he dumped poor Tony. Phoenix 2015 - Picked the right pit stall, and the caution came out at the right time. I love how certain people â?" mostly but not limited to Gordon fans â?" call Junior's wins luck, when Jeff had a rainbow rabbit's foot crammed up his ass from 1995-2001. My ultimate point being, none of those wins compare to the top three cars crashing and you being the first car to drive by them. No strategy there. Strategy, as much as you may hate to admit it, came with last Sunday's win. They stay out a lap later, he runs ninth. A lap earlier, he probably runs third. Making the call to pit at the right time is not luck, no matter which driver it is. He earned the lead through that. The rain came at a lucky time, though. 762. 88&4Fan posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:31 pm Rate this comment: (1) (1) Sean is also forgetting about all the races during that time where Jr easily could've won but bad luck kept him from winning. 2006 Talladega Fall - Vickers decides to be an idiot and takes out him and Jimmie Johnson 2007 Texas Spring - Had one of the dominant cars until Kyle Busch had ARCA brakes and rammed him from behind under caution (and of course Junior later finished the race for Kyle when he had his temper tantrum that led to Junior replacing Kyle at Hendrick) 2008 Richmond Spring - Gets wrecked while leading with two to go after Hamlin intentionally stopped on the track to draw a caution 2008 Coke 600 - Gets damage from JJ Yeley while leading 2010 Daytona 500 - Charged from tenth to second in two laps, one more lap and he probably wins it 2011 Martinsville Spring - Passed with four laps to go 2011 Talladega Spring - Tandem pushes Johnson to the win, if the tandem had been Johnson behind Jr at the end he would've won 2011 Coke 600 - Runs out of gas in turn four on the last lap 2012 Daytona 500 - Biffle blocks the whole track for the leader stopping anyone else from challenging for the win while Junior has a chance to get there 2012 Pocono2 - Blown engine while leading 2013 Daytona 500 - See 2012 Daytona 500 2013 Talladega Fall - NASCAR throws a caution for a wreck behind the leaders on the last lap while Junior is in second 2014 Las Vegas - Runs out of gas on the last lap while leading 2014 Darlington - Passed on the last restart for the win 2015 Talladega Fall - Complete fustercluck of a finish while Junior is inches behind Logano So does that make up for those "lucky wins" yet? 763. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:35 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) If you didn't have good or bad luck, you wouldn't have any luck at all. As a Gordon fan, I've been fortunate that he's been lucky several times and that's why heartbreakers like the 2012 Martinsville Spring race didn't seem that bad to me. 764. Big Mac Fan posted: 11.20.2015 - 11:43 pm Rate this comment: (1) (0) "2010 Daytona 500 - Charged from tenth to second in two laps, one more lap and he probably wins it 2011- Martinsville Spring- Passed with four laps to go 2012 Daytona 500- Biffle blocks the whole track for the leader stopping anyone else from challenging from the win 2013 Daytona 500- See 2012 Daytona 500 2013 Talladega Fall- NASCAR throws a caution for a wreck behind the leaders on the last lap while Johnson is in 2nd. 2014 Darlington- Passed on the last restart for the win." While I agree Jr. has had his share of bad luck, these are hardly luck factors. Crashes, Mechanical failures, etc. are bad luck. Finishing 2nd because of running out of laps, not getting a good restart, not being in the lead at the right time of the caution (I'll give this years Talladega race though) and being blocked is hardly bad luck. 765. Sean posted: 11.21.2015 - 12:32 am Rate this comment: (0) (1) I find all bump-and-run passes to be rather crass although that was probably not the best word to use. I acknowledge that every driver does them (at least at that level). I also realize that everybody lucks into races and that Junior has other races he could have won but did not. I simply believe that since 2004 a higher percentage of his wins were lucky than most other drivers, although I believe an even higher percentage of Ryan Newman's wins were (especially over his entire career). I didn't mean that to be as scathing or biased as it probably sounded, and I would certainly say the same thing about similar bump-and-run passes by Jeff Gordon, Matt Kenseth, Dale Jarrett, Rusty Wallace, even Terry Labonte, whoever... Even my favorite drivers Josef Newgarden and Jordan Taylor, and they are not blameless... I was one of the people who didn't like Logano's initial spin of Kenseth (I didn't see being blocked on a previous lap as justification for that), although Kenseth took it way too far in response. I realize everybody gets lucky, but Junior has been luckier than most in the last ten years, as has Newman. And I don't have a problem with that (I like him more than a lot of other drivers). The difference with him and Gordon in the late '90s is Gordon won all sorts of different ways and while his luck was annoying and him bumping Rusty Wallace was even more annoying, he (and Johnson, etc...) while definitely luckier than most other drivers, relied on luck a smaller percentage of the time. People said over the time that Gordon and Johnson were lucky because they had Evernham and Knaus who made brilliant pit crews for them, so am I not allowed to say Junior has been lucky when he has benefited from pit calls? I believe it's valid either way. You do need to be in position to benefit from luck, and he has, and I still do lean toward Junior over Newman because his success of 2001-04 was much less strategy-induced than Newman's in the same time period but I shouldn't have backed down as quickly as I did. "If it was anyone else, you'd credit the crew chief and stop there. Junior didn't stay out. Hmiel made a great pit call." I forgot it was 2 tires, not staying out, but yes, I would say it was luck no matter which driver benefited from a pit call, and that's part of the game and I have no problem with that. "Pocono 2014 - Please. Gordon, Johnson, Kyle Busch, everyone's put themselves in a place to take advantage of a leader's decision/mistake." And I would call any such incident when the leader pulled over allowing a driver to win lucky. If Junior had been leading, pulled over to clean debris off his grill, and handed the win to Keselowski, I'd have said the same thing. "Phoenix 2015 - Picked the right pit stall, and the caution came out at the right time." Again something his team did, not him. Benefiting from a team's pit strategy is luck from the driver's perspective. "I love how certain people �?" mostly but not limited to Gordon fans �?" call Junior's wins luck, when Jeff had a rainbow rabbit's foot crammed up his ass from 1995-2001." He won more races due to luck than Junior did (as did Johnson), but a smaller percentage (especially since 2004). And I LIKE Junior more than Gordon and Johnson, by the way. "My ultimate point being, none of those wins compare to the top three cars crashing and you being the first car to drive by them. No strategy there." Oh, it's a continuum for sure. I don't think he has EVER gotten as lucky as James Buescher's Daytona win where the top ten cars crashed or people staying out of the pits and winning when a caution comes out (yes, benefiting from a decision your team makes is luck from the driver's perspective in many cases, and EVERY driver benefits from this). "Strategy, as much as you may hate to admit it, came with last Sunday's win. They stay out a lap later, he runs ninth. A lap earlier, he probably runs third. Making the call to pit at the right time is not luck, no matter which driver it is. He earned the lead through that. The rain came at a lucky time, though." The team deserved the win, but the driver did nothing to obtain it. But that's not a diss of Junior. It happens all the time. My criticism of Junior is that a higher percentage of his recent wins were like that than other drivers. But I was happy to see him win more than other outcomes. I admit the word 'crass' was excessive but I probably would have used it in similar cases for other drivers. It's hardly a personal vendetta against Junior (I've stated I hate Harvick and do not hate Junior, but Harvick doesn't exactly luck into a lot of wins...he had a knack for making late-race passes and taking the lead himself a greater percentage of the time...but that doesn't mean I like Harvick or dislike Junior at all). 766. Ryan W posted: 11.22.2015 - 3:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Sean is also forgetting about all the races during that time where Jr easily could've won but bad luck kept him from winning." It's why I don't have a problem with him winning this race. I enjoyed it. He deserved it. Everyone acts like the fix is in for him for some reason, but the truth is it has never even been close to that. He's lost a lot of close ones more so than he has won them. I didn't feel a bit bad about him winning this race like he did. He celebrated and so did I. 767. Driver X posted: 02.03.2016 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Hello guys, I'm back again. This time, I did the Xfinity Chase scenarios for the 2008 and 2009 seasons. For 2008, the final four would have been Brad Keselowski, Mike Wallace, Mike Bliss and Marcos Ambrose. With the Chasers taken out of the season finale, Brad K would have won the race and the championship. One thing I noticed is that Scott Wimmer finished 4th in the "opening" race, but didn't race again until Homestead. Who knows how he would have done... For 2009, the final four would have been Mike Bliss, (who got fired by his team, and ironically, got to drive for them in the final race of the year), Brendan Gaughan, Brad Keselowski, and Scott Wimmer Brendan Gaughan would have won the championship by 1 single point, but for all intents and purposes, Brad Keselowski would have been a back to back champion because Denny would not have been able to race, being a Chaser. 768. Gelato101 posted: 05.06.2017 - 11:02 pm Rate this comment: (0) (1) Calling it now, this will be Jr's last cup win 769. Brad24 posted: 06.04.2017 - 4:55 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) "Calling it now, this will be Jr's last cup win" Unless he pulls off a Daytona or Talladega miracle, I think it's a safe bet this will be his last win. 770. 95McDowellFan posted: 07.18.2017 - 6:37 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) I never would've guessed this race would be last career win, because it is starting to look like it will be 771. Danish Pie posted: 07.18.2017 - 7:52 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) He still has Talladega this Fall. Won't matter in terms of a championship, but he certainly has the chance to make a storybook ending happen in what will quite possibly be his last Cup race at Talladega. 772. chevyfan98 posted: 07.18.2017 - 8:18 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Just one of many examples of how you can never take anything for granted. I think he has three legitimate chances left this year: Pocono, Talladega, and Martinsville, though two of them are in the chase so pretty much unless he wins Pocono or gets a troll win somewhere he'll miss the chase. Even scarier to think about is that we're still only five years removed from Tony Stewart being the reigning cup series champion. WTF. 773. Anonymous posted: 11.20.2017 - 12:23 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s final Cup Series win 774. Gabriel posted: 05.14.2018 - 10:14 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Junior underachieved at Hendrick except in 2014... And people literally crucified anyone who said that. 775. Wil posted: 05.14.2018 - 11:00 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) @774 "people literally crucified anyone who said that." Do you not know what the word 'literally' means, or are you just an 8th grade girl who talks like that? 776. Not Sure posted: 05.15.2018 - 12:10 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) In the non-gimmick points standings, Jr. finished 9th in 2012 (likely would have finished 6th if he didn't have to sit out two races), 5th in 2013, and 4th in 2014 and 2015. That's a pretty good four year stretch. It's also worth pointing out the 25 car he took over had consistently been Hendrick's worst car in the preceding dozen years. Jr.'s worst seasons at Hendrick - 2009, 2010, and 2017 - are roughly about what one could expect from the 25 car from 1995 to 2007. 777. Anthony posted: 05.15.2018 - 8:06 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) The Lance Mcgrew years were terrible. He was a horrible crew chief. 778. Mile501 posted: 11.13.2019 - 10:43 am Rate this comment: (0) (0) After realizing that it is difficult to find the point standings before each playoff reset (this website, along with NASCAR's official reports, only shows points after the reset), I am posting them for each playoff elimination race. Here are the points at the conclusion of this race, before the reset (with drivers who won a race during this round listed first): 2015 Eliminator Round 1. Jeff Gordon -2 (1 win) 2. Kevin Harvick 3. Kyle Busch -2 4. Martin Truex, Jr. -17 -- Eliminated -- 5. Carl Edwards -22 6. Brad Keselowski -30 7. Kurt Busch -38 8. Joey Logano -69 779. Rich posted: 12.05.2020 - 8:41 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rick Allen, Jeff Burton and Steve Letarte were the commentators. Marty Snider, Mike Massaro, Kelli Stavast and Dave Burns were the pit road reporters. 780. Rich posted: 12.09.2020 - 8:25 pm Rate this comment: (0) (0) Rick Allen, Jeff Burton and Steve Letarte were the commentators. Marty Snider, Mike Massaro, Kelli Stavast and Dave Burns were the pit road reporters. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *Post a comment:* Your comment may not appear immediately - all comments must be approved by the moderator. Name: Comment: